Compliments and credits to Glow Worm from B.Ellis blog.
Perhaps it’s the system itself that is cheating us, not the Lib/Lab divide? When I can’t sleep, I go to the AEC website and start doing sums until the eyelids begin to droop. Why is Australia wedded to the preferential system of voting? Whom does it advantage? Why is the ‘Westminster’ model the only choice? But they have something called ‘First Past the Post’ which would mean that the Libs on their own would never get in. Why don’t we debate alternatives?
Of 14.7 million voters, more people voted Labor than Liberal. About the same number voted Nationals as Green. How many representatives do the Nats have? How many the Greens?
There is something here that does not sit right. For example, if we had proportional representation, we would have a different parliament and a different discourse.
A better grass-roots battle to wage?
Window Dresser's Arms, Pig & Whistle 
Just a note here. Christopher Pyne has special needs children; two actually.
I mentioned it in one of the other blogs, but was ignored.
It’s why he is passionate about education. or so he says. According to some of you in here, he is a creep and a liar. Perhaps he’s just a concerned father and a hard worker?
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Nah, he’s a creep and a liar; and the better man would have forgone a famously family impoverishing career in politics to better look after those kids.
Personal hardship doesn’t necessarily make you a good person and in Pyne’s case I’d be saving the kudos for mother Pyne. There’s almost no doubt she carries the majority of the burdens such special children create, while Pyne tales advantage of the media narrative you’ve just regurgitated.
But look, I get it Caris old son. You’re a Liberal supporter and there are Liberals worth supporting, it’s just that Pyne isn’t one of them.
I find it better to have little or no expectations from any politician. That way when one of them behaves in a humane or simply human manner I can feel some sympathy even emapthy.
I get none of that from Pyne. Never have and don’t expect to.
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When I get a sniff of personal abuse comments, I read no further. Life for me is too short to bother mouthing off against other bloggers. And sitting by and reading it is a total waste of time.
There is one cardinal rule of blogging that seems to have been more or less forgotten at the Pig’s Arms – “Do NOT feed the trolls”. Please ….. don’t be a troll …. and if a troll abuses you, don’t supply the time of day – or any oxygen – by arguing.
Now – on to the private schools cheating thing. Emmlet II was in the gifted and talented year 5 and 6 class at a private school. He drifted south and by year 8 he was in the bottom quarter of the year, hanging around with tomorrow’s criminals. This first tier school had no idea why he had gone from the top 10% of students in his year 6 to the bottom 10% in year 8. When he was diagnosed with ADHD and treated, we sent him to a different private school that was by reputation far more conservative, disciplined and caring and adept at working with kids with problems. He thrived and finished back in the top 10% of his year at the new school in his HSC.
And he is one of those statistics – special needs kids in a private school where he was given better resources and special considerations like more time in the exam and sitting in a room by himself – with an independent supervisor and no distractions. Which is one reason why some private schools do have a higher percentage of special condition kids sitting HSCs – they have proven themselves to be excellent at helping special needs kids to do well.
Now Tim the cabin boy – who is also a special needs student – has had a rough run in state primary and high schools. The extra funding the primary school was given for a special needs teacher’s aid for Tim – was used to fund services for another kid whose mum was a single parent and a drug-dependent prostitute. Tough call for the principal and we understood his decision – but it didn’t help Tim much Now Tim is in a religious high school (not even our religion) who agreed to take him after another boy attempted to sexually assault him at the state high school. Not only was the state school totally unresourced and incapable of caring for his special education needs, they were unable to keep him safe. The police and DoCS were involved and shelved the case when the other family fled the country permanently and took their son overseas.
So, is it cheating for some schools to offer special needs students more appropriate teaching and fairer assessment ? What if their charter promotes social welfare and a fair go even for kids with learning disabilities ? Is one explanation for a higher percentage of special needs students at certain schools simply that people with special needs kids actively seek out schools that can and do deliver better educational services for these kids – for which parents like we are, who are not rich, are never-the-less prepared to fork out enormous school fees to give our kids their best chance in life’s lottery ?
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Special needs is an area on its own. Of course you give your child the very best on offer and I imagine special kids have to go to private schools that can afford teachers that are specialised in areas that are not main-stream.
Even so, those specialised care education facilities ought also be available in special public schools. The reality is that they are not. Both Tim and the single mum’s kid should both have the specialised care. I constantly harp away at Australia being shithouse when it comes to issues such as Tim. ( My schizophrenic brother Frank, still alive, but under excellent care in Holland gives us and my other two brothers and sister each year about $1800.-US as he just can’t spend his pension except for cigarettes and the occasional set of clothes.)
As for trolls, I get the message.
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Hallelujah, Praise the Lord, he gets the message about trolling.
But WHY then troll about special needs education of all things? Assistance IS available to special needs kids in Australia. Algie has already written this below about his own son. Why make up out of thin air that it isn’t? Funding is available but it’s up to the school principal and teachers to have the attitude and expertise to know when to apply for it and how to use it. Since my son was in primary school there’s an advocacy group been set up to help parents negotiate with schools. The problem isn’t always attitude, sometimes it’s ignorance. When teachers realise the special needs support can help them as much as it helps the kids they are more willing to co-operate.
Special needs kids are a very bad subject to troll about.
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On the other side of the coin, isn’t it odd that NSW at least sees fit to have selective schools for the extremely bright students as the main focus of special needs. OK to help those who are not struggling by removing them from classes where other kids are struggling. By doing that the Education Department is wilfully dumbing down the non-selective classes and disadvantaging average students by denying them excellent role models – the kids who could otherwise contribute positively to the life of the class.
Even within our old private school, the gifted and talented class of years 5 and 6 was a scam and a piece of window dressing. What happened in year 7 ? They returned to the mainstream and got back to the same curriculum as everyone else, after gaining a reputation as having been a member of “the smart arse class”.
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As for Abbott. He has put a clamp on information about boat people, and the Governor of Christmas Island is threatening to resign over this.
When the previous ALP government spoke about how the Murdoch Press and their henchmen were influencing the outcome of the election, it was Abbott who protested against any interference and hailed ‘freedom of press’ as the foundation of democracy.
It seems different now, does it not?
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I’ve sat back and watched today’s barney wondering how I could respond. I’ve been here not quite since the pigs started but not far short of it. I’ve considered some of the full and frank discussions that have taken place here. I’ve remembered some really difficult times that some have had and the cries for help that have ensued. I had a look at the “about” page here. I’m struck by it’s third paragraph which I reprint here.
“The Pig’s Arms welcomes original contributions – stories, poems, pictures and cartoons, sound and video clips. We especially value humour, wit and sophistication and preferably 500-1,000 words in length. Longer stories can be serialised and published in sequence.”
I then had a look at recent contributions made by regulars here. I’m not talking about replies to posts here I’m talking about a contribution that we can all comment on. I then looked at some of the players here and their contributions or lack thereof. There are some here I wonder why they are here. Never a contribution, fairly solid on the abuse of others at times. there are others who contribute pieces for comment quite regularly as well.
Surely part of being part of this community is to actually contribute something for others to comment on.
My interest in politics goes back to my teens. I have always had a left leaning (which won’t surprise many here). I also have contacts and acquaintances at high levels in both parties. It’s an earlier acquaintance that tells me that one leader is simply unfit to hold high office.
Elections should be about ideas and policy, honesty and integrity. All in very short supply and non existent from one side recently. For probably the first time I felt disengaged, with the treatment of asylum seekers a tipping point for me.
Shoe it’s interesting you should bring up two people here Pyne and Joyce. Education and the lack of any policy development from Pyne I find jarring. He is after all now Education Minister. My youngest is now on the cusp of year 12, the middle first year uni and the oldest a few weeks off finishing their degree. They are all publicly educated at excellent state comprehensives, I’m amazed how well they’ve been educated with schools with so little compared to their private counterparts. I might add that these schools perform as well as the local private schools even if those private schools cheat for students in the HSC. Gonski brings a level playing field for all. What was Pyne’s contribution, Its a con, What’s his policy.
The other is Joyce. Every month I need to go to Dubbo on business for a couple of days. The local press had an advertisement for all the Nationals candidates and what they did before they entered politics. He said he was a Primary Producer from Barraba, Huh, He was a Queensland Senator and for the record he was an Accountant from St George. He may well have a farm but it’s not how he occupied his time.
I could go on but I won’t.
I take your point shoe that we don’t need to be squeaky polite to one another, and like many I agree with a robust debate. Perhaps its time some offered a piece for comment here. It’s not that hard.
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http://www.smh.com.au/comment/fakes-trolls-and-counterfeit-politics-20130922-2u7th.html
Food for thought.
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Jules, the last time the ‘fakes’ were exposed they were generated by paid people in another (country the name of which I forget) – this was about 2-3 weeks ago. Those fakes nearly all said exactly the same thing and they were all anti-Labor. I think most of the examples Sheehan put up were spot on. Unfortunately Sheehan has turned himself into a cross between Bolt and Henderson.
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Mmm. it’s awful when one turns in to something. I thought that he was just a successful journalist.
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Did you read the article or just pick up on the phrases that suited you. Have you read other articles of Sheehan, Check out the language that he uses.
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Of course I read the article.
I judge articles on their merit, not by what else they have written. If I did that I never would read anything that you or anyone in here writes, as you have called T.A so many names over the last 4 years that, one would think that you are a serial abuser I I have pointed out that you, Helvi and Gerard do it. Bit it’s in your DNA.
I am glad that our government is trying to slow this incessant 24hr news cycle.
It takes the initiative away from the reporters and gives control (some anyway) back to our government.
I mean really if’n youse think about it what difference does it make whether you know how many boats there are at 7am on Tuesday, or by 6.25pm on Thurs?
Labor were dumb for announcing them – as if they were medals.
Anyway, let’s see the tally over the next 6 months – that’s the acid test.
I liked Sheehan’s description of retribution for perfidy : “On September 7, the Australian electorate, especially the legion of small business operators, struck back at the growth in debt and deficit and bureaucracy and big favours for big unions. The majority of the electorate simply failed to see this higher moral ground, this sense of equity, this font of generosity. With other people’s money.”
Thank god we were able to lance the boil after 6 years. One can only imagine the pandemonium after another 3.
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So you are just picking the bits that suit you rather than grasping what the article was about.
Go back and read any of his articles over the past two years, most of them compared to this article are the pot calling the kettle black.
Copping abuse from you Julian is a bit like being slapped around the face with a wet lettuce. Perhaps its best you stop trolling.
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What do you mean, trolling? You have a bad memory.
Many times over the years I’ve complained about you personally abusing politicians and commentators. If I had the time I would dig out the comments (perhaps I will). You’ve used plenty of nasty words. Are you telling me that you don’t remember?
You have mounted a relentless attack of personal abuse about our PM, something that I never did about Gillard, although I said that she was useless in her job – as was Rudd.
It’s because I got so fed up with it, that I started to retaliate with short rebuffs and tit for tat. That’s not trolling. That’s standing up for my views and other people.
There has been numerous sly comments about me too, as well as your endorsements of Hung’s articles.
Anyways, I’m bored again. I am not going to REPEAT what I have written about Sheehan and his articles, however it’s contained in the first sentence of my 2nd paragraph.
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The local private schools cheat for students in the HSC?
I’m not going to lecture you as I’m sure we could all lecture each other. But … seriously? They cheat? How? It’s a pretty serious allegation to find itself as a throw-away line in a thoughtful comment about the PA and politics.
In the spirit of robust debate – I think the concept of robust debate differs greatly. A small group of people making disparaging and sometimes sleazy comments about people’s clothing, makeup, looks, dress sense, voices, weight and morals doesn’t add up to robust debate in my book. How boring if everyone wrote an academic treatise, but a couple of people are telling you they find it alienating and that’s a high percentage of the people commenting.
I don’t consider myself to be a delicate flower here.
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I am sorry to have to confirm that there have been occasions where private schools have cheated. It was mainly to do with getting students extra time to do exams by claiming and supporting some disability which was clearly nothing of the sort.
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Private schools depend on funding from parents…So, that makes them vulnerable to the temptation to cheat. Furthermore, non performing students are likely to be eased through exams as much as possible. One reason why the student drop-out rate at unis are higher amongst those syrup- spoon fed at private high schools.
In the long run public school students perform better, so why continue on with that dual system?
How many would stop that private school system if all the uniforms were abolished. Here in Bowral, many parents one meets soon let it drop which private school their little Phillips or Mavis’ go to. It definitely has a status. How silly in a society that prides itself on having values based on equality for all.
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Hang on, Algie said that his local private schools cheat in the HSC exams. Out Eastwood way if my memory is having a rare episode of functionality.
That’s a far cry from A private school SOMEWHERE having cheated SOMETIME. But … what private schools were they, how many times did they cheat, when, how, and how often? Or is it just scuttlebut? Has a public school ever cheated?
In any case, why toss it out as an abrasive remark in what’s otherwise a considered comment? If Algie stands by it he ought to at least get it into some kind of context, such as what I’ve written above and what the repercussions were.
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I am talking about special considerations given to students during exams. Now I’m not saying there shouldn’t be special considerations far from it. they are necessary for those with disabilities and or illness. It should benefit around 6% of those undertaking exams to reach their full potential. The year my eldest did their HSC out of 180 that undertook the HSC 10 were given special consideration, they were one of them. There is plenty of proof that they require the additional assistance. Up the road the private school with 65 sitting the HSC 40 were given special consideration. Their ranking jumped from the 170’s to the low ’40’s.Each of the non state schools to a lesser extent had excessive numbers.
I had a conversation with a work colleague last year as both of us had children undertaking the HSC. There’s was attending a private school within the cohort of the school in question, without mentioning any school they described the school as “The Cheat School”, I didn’t even bring it up. There school was close to the norm as far as special consideration were concerned.
I might point out I was talking about local private schools not “A private school SOMEWHERE having cheated SOMETIME.” I am not saying that ALL private schools rort this, In fact I would suspect most don’t. Do public schools rort this, possibly, but why would they. They don’t have the resources to do so.
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Still a big accusation. How do you know the percentage of students that get special consideration? Is it published somewhere? How much resources do you NEED to get special consideration? Surely it’s a matter of medical certificate and filling in a form. How do you know the school doesn’t have a high proportion of special needs children? If it has a good reputation for helping them, it might attract them. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but as a throw-away line it doesn’t work. You still haven’t said nearly enough to back it up. If you have evidence of cheating shouldn’t you feel obliged to report it to the Education Department? Even if it’s just that the percentage of special considerations is published and you think it sounds suspicious. Come to that, shouldn’t the Education Department itself investigate anomalies? Wherever you have a system to support people that need help someone will rort it. No-one should know that better than the Government.
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http://www.smh.com.au/national/tertiary-education/private-students-most-likely-to-apply-for-hsc-special-consideration-20111207-1ojbs.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/elite-school-students-get-more-special-help-in-hsc/2008/05/25/1211653847168.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/elite-schools-seek-better-outcomes/story-e6freuy9-1226123698575
http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/disability-provisions/
Voice, I’ve attached three widely available examples as well as the rules surrounding the provisions. It’s a little more that a medical certificate and filling out a form. The reports tend to support the percentage I’ve offered. I’m well aware of the provisions and the back up that is required as well as the cost of providing this.
Now the school in question here doesn’t have a high proportion of special needs children nor is it a throwaway line, More like maximising results then advertising those results.
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I only read the first article Algie but given that it requires caring and effort I’m not a bit surprised that private schools accounted for more than half the applications for HSC exam disability provisions. When the chief executive of the Sydney Anglican Schools Corporation, said the high number of students from Anglican schools seeking disability provisions may be explained by a focus on pastoral care he hit the nail on the head for the cases I know about.
As I’ve written before, my son started as a special needs kid in a public school. The teachers did everything they could to get rid of him and the other special needs kids at the school. He was one of those who would always have been in a normal school even without the policy to mainstream special needs, but the teachers considered themselves hard done by because of that policy and so targeted ALL the special needs kids. Unlike Tim, his assistance money wasn’t spent on helping a worse off kid – it was spent on someone who literally sharpened the teachers’ pencils. When one of the special needs kid parents found a competent person to do the job of assisting special needs kids the school refused to take her on and stuck with the nice but out of her depth young woman who had originally been hired as a kindergarten assistant to help the littlies settle in and hadn’t a clue with special needs kids.
I finally saw the light and got him into a private school where they couldn’t do too much to help and saw him as a valuable member of the community. Sure my son has a talent or two but they would have made the effort anyway and did for the others. I’ve seen comments by other people on the old Unleashed in response to mine about how their special needs kids were victimized at and by their public school. Because they can’t expel them, they harass them or leave them to be abused until the parents get the message and remove the kids themselves.
Clearly this doesn’t happen at all public schools, yours being a case in point Algie. Resources were nothing to do with the problem my son and others had at his public school; it was attitude. Plain and simple.
Our local public school was an extreme case but over in Adelaide my cousin’s son was ridiculed by his public school teacher as a slow learner and then diagnosed with dyslexia by the private school his mother finally moved him to; upon which he began to succeed. Another mother was informed by the local public school her daughter would never learn to read until an IQ test organised by the mother (a very poor mother) showed the girl had above average IQ, leading her to be eventually diagnosed with Aspergers and entitling her to State help to learn to read outside of the school.
Maybe one of the other 3 links that I haven’t taken the time to read (I’m up early as you’ll see from the timestamp) provides evidence of cheating. I have no doubt that some parents DO cheat – as I said before someone will always rort any system for helping those who need it. I also have no doubt that not all private school staff maximise assistance to special needs kids out of pastoral care concerns – there are always people in any job that have their eyes on the results statistics and couldn’t give a stuff about anything else.
If you don’t like private schools that’s up to you, but to accuse them of cheating because they can be bothered helping special needs kids is really, really horrible.
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Tim’s school has about 90 special needs kids in a population of 1,300 boys. This is a huge challenge for a school community. They have a dedicated learning support department with specialist teachers and they cycle regular teachers through the department so that they learn more about how to work with a range of special needs kids. When Tim went there half way through year 7 the head of learning support was a maths teacher who gave the kids a tremendously caring and relaxed environment to avoid stressing them and causing anxiety and truancy. Tim visited the school and had three one-on-one sessions with this teacher walking him around and showing him where things were – when all the other students were at the sports carnival or there was a pupil-free day and it was peaceful and not so confronting for a new kid.
This bloke briefed the class Tim was going to join before Tim’s first day. He told them ” If we have a class member who needs a wheel chair, we take extra care to help him deal with his disability. The new boy joining us does not have a wheel chair but he does have other difficulties and I’d like you to remember that, be patient and help him when he needs it and you can help.” And he assigned two of the leading (more mature and capable) students as Tim’s special minders for the remainder of the year.
This school sees one of its important ideals as providing care for kids that would otherwise have a very difficult time in a regular school because they are almost, but not quite “normal” students. I admire, deeply respect and am profoundly grateful for their dedication and caring work.
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Oh dear, I didn’t mean to say she was a very poor mother. I meant to say she was a very poor mother.
She was a brilliant mother, but one with very little money.
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I have two children with special needs, one with dystonia in their hands and the other dyslexia. The eldest was being streamed toward special requirements with exams when their exam results were some 40% below the class work in high school. When they had a scribe the gap closed. At university they also have a scribe for exams.
The other with dyslexia was discovered due to the perseverance of one teacher when in infants. That on top of other personal issues they were dealing with. Unfortunately due to the area we lived in there was only enough assistance for 1.5 students per year when there was a need for 4 or 5, but the school didn’t leave them behind. To get results like Naplan were rarely forthcoming from them in fact you have to dig it out of the bottom of their bag. The year 9 Naplan was never received. They felt shame and no amount of telling them that their strengths lay elsewhere would convince them. Safe to say they now get that and with a lot of hard work from them, supportive teachers and a good group of encouraging friends they are now achieving at their potential. We are requesting special provisions with the limited resources the school has.
Now a few corrections. State schools do expel Youngest had two in their year in year 9 though expulsion is the last resort. My other two had some skate close, with the eldest telling us that 4 in his year were asked not to return for their senior years.
I could also point out that on average 25 girls from the nearby Catholic school also try to transfer each year to their school. There is virtually no traffic the other way. The school can no longer take all of them.
I also note that Tims school has 90 special needs out of 1300 or about 7% or what you’d normally expect. Not the 65% at the school In question or 8 times the norm.
It’s the 8x the norm I find offensive and it has nothing to do with pastoral care or bothering to care with kids of special needs.
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For Fucks Sake. I just read the smh article you linked to and got angry all over again. Even angrier. My son went to one of the schools listed and I can assure you they DO have more than twice the average number of special needs kids. They have a reputation for successfully integrating them and that, along with the fact that my son’s talents are particularly catered for there, is why I chose the school. Stopping the bullying that the local public school pretended to be trying to stop and did absolutely nothing about was the Number One reason for sending him there. I didn’t even KNOW about special provisions at the HSC. Boy, was it a good decision on my part! It turned out that a few kids from the local public school moved there in Year 7 and were carrying over the bullying from his old school at the bus stop. (There’s that weird kid from … school!) When it escalated to the stage I found out about it I went to the Deputy Head and he stopped it in literally ONE day. Best decision I ever made.
What a mean-spirited nasty little article.
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Well there you go Voice, the public system is full of bullies and they need private schools because they don’t have any, is that what your suggesting. I suppose they are nothing more than low life scum who’ll never achieve anything. What a load of rot!
Bullying is prevalent at ALL schools, Its a question of what the school does and how serious they are about it. All my kids have been bullied at High school and on each occasion they handled each case swiftly and appropriately. The eldest in year 10 went to his year teacher period 1 by period 3 the principal had sorted the whole situation out, threatening this persons school certificate and expulsion, the thing is the boy never came near Junior again, and the perpetrator well he changed for the better as a result.
Same with the Algernonina’s one cyber bullied and the other princessed out by things that though they were the “popular” girls. Another one where the girl changed for the better as a result.
I can point to a client who took their daughters out of one private school where nothing was done about bullying for the elder. They then sent them to another it was great for the first but the second had a dreadful time as did most of the year with many requiring therapy. The head girl was the culprit and the school well they wouldn’t do anything as dad who was a senior counsel for a multinational was a significant financial contributor to the school. The school told them that. They would have withdrawn their daughter except she was too far into her senior schooling.
We all make choices for our kids for reasons that suit our kids, there are many state schools I’d give a wide birth to in our area. We considered both private and public schools for ours.
As you pointed out you have a son with special needs same with Emm , I have two myself, what is important is they get the special consideration they need and for all kids that need it. But I will not back away form say that a school were 45 out of 65 kids getting special consideration where the number who REALLY need it is ACTUALLY a lot less is not cheating.
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Are you looking for a fight Algernon? Because I had no idea how you could have thought I was accusing you of demanding we all write academic treatises but I assumed I’d just written it ambiguously. But now you’re putting stupid words into my mouth. What’s more, they are words I’ve already specifically said I DON”T think – can’t be bothered looking it up but it’s on this page.
You never answered the question of how you know (reliably) that school’s percentage HSC assistance rate, and how you know (reliably) that school’s percentage of special needs kids. I still think that an accusation like the one you’re making needs some good evidence behind it.
But I really take issue with this smh beatup you’ve linked to, and with you for linking to it as if it’s somehow worth anything.
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Forget it voice, I’m not looking for anything, You’re right I’m wrong and so is anyone who dares to have any sort of reasonable debate. What are they, spiteful, nasty, abusive, a nonce…..
Demonstrate where I accused of the following statement “Because I had no idea how you could have thought I was accusing you of demanding we all write academic treatises but I assumed I’d just written it ambiguously.” I accepted that as you pointed out it was a poor choice of words. What I suggested was that people put up posts for other people comment on nothing more nothing less. Heck I’m hardly an academic, I’m happy compiling a weekly music list and hope others enjoy it as well.
To answer you question the numbers and percentages come from the Board of Studies, those who have overreaching control of all senior students regardless of where they go to school.
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Oh dear oh dear. And here I had thought it was an honest misunderstanding. How disappointing.
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Algy;
I would not give oxygen to those that are incapable of civility to others. It is just not worth it I understand completely were you are coming from.
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That’s right. Suppress or ignore other point of view. Only yours counts.
I bet you wish you could censor it gerad – YOU DID ONCE BEFORE.
It must be troubling when other people disagree, with you – or Algernon’s views.
Are you descended from German ptrson camp guards?
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I agree with gerard, Caz. And with your good self. Giving oxygen to those who are incapable of civility is a losing game. Implying that those who disagree with you or call you out are uncivil, regardless of whether or not it has any truth in reality, is a transparent attempt at censorship.
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I’m not sure if the second part of your reply of 9:31am is directed at me Voice but you have used the word “you”. Did I suggest that everyone write “an academic treatise”, no and furthermore I’m hardly an academic I suggested that contributing something for others to comment on. I make the effort so do others. Some here don’t and appear uninterested in doing so,
So I’ll ask you voice are you directing this at me or is it a generalisation. If it;s a generalisation then I’m inclined to agree with you.If your directing that at me then back it up.
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Hi Algie; you’ve lost me here. Are you saying you think I’m accusing someone (you or anyone else) of suggesting everyone write an academic treatise? If so, I must have worded it badly. It was just me musing.
The point was suppose to be that there’s plenty of room to move upwards from criticism of personal characteristics such as clothing WITHOUT getting to the stage where you/we/one is limited to writing a treatise. Yep, I seem to have phrased it REALLY badly. Bother.
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Fair enough.
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This sums up most of your articles, thoughts expressions deeds and intellect: A comment by Helvi.
“Why do almost all Liberal politicians have big mouths or at least large chins: Abbott, Mirabella, Kelly O’Dwyer, Andrew Robb, Scott Morrison , I have trying to erase Chris Pyne out of my mind, it has been successful: has he too got a big mouth?
The content is almost as bad as Vivienne’s, whose own aimless banter is only marginally rescued by her sentence construction. t’s all about ‘wanting’ without any suggestions, as to how to get the revanue.
The barrenness of ideas, about how cultures intertwine to produce effective, harmonious, funding of projects, is simply not there. in fact Helvi’s post crystallises, the ‘ALP way’. It’s started already, with the ‘new’ Tony Burke trying to score points over the release of boat arrivals, information – as if that will help to increase our funding of the welfare system, or building roads and exporting (anything).
What matters is how many illegal, -YES ILLEGAL, according to ABC fact check – migrants we are letting in, in lieu of those already on the UN’s roll!
Let’s get rid of compulsory voting too.
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You just pick on me Jules because you know, somewhere deep down in your heart, that I am right.
As for the boat arrival matter. I’m almost speechless.
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Increase revenue by decreasing expenditure on tax perks for the mining industry/the wealthy. Increase revenue by increasing taxation on the mining industry and the very wealthy.
For starters.
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I see, so that’s Germany’s secret. Shit.
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1. “On what should have been one of the proudest days of Gillard’s political career, she bungled it with a less than flattering haircut and a frumpy ’80s tapestry print jacket… Get yourself a stylist your own age.” Anita Quigley. Daily Telegraph. December 2006
2. “I mean anyone who chooses to remain deliberately barren… they’ve got no idea what life’s about.” Senator Bill Heffernan. The Bulletin. May 2007
3. “You won’t need his (PM Kevin Rudd) taxpayer-funded nanny, will you?” Sophie Mirabella. Parliament. May 2008
4. “She has chosen not to be a parent… she is very much a one-dimensional person… she just doesn’t understand the way parents think about their children when they reach a particular age.” Senator George Brandis. ABC Radio. January 2010
5. “She has showcased a bare home and an empty kitchen as badges of honour and commitment to her career. She has never had to make room for the frustrating demands and magnificent responsibilities of caring for little babies, picking up sick children from school, raising teenagers. Not to mention the needs of a husband or partner.” Janet Albrechtsen. The Australian. July 2010
6. “She looks like a real weakling.” Mark Latham. Sky News. August 2010
(Latham also accused the PM of being inappropriate when she touched his chest in an interview: “The physicality of it was all on her side. I’m a happily married man and this sort of stuff I found a little bit out of the ordinary.”)
7. “Juliar Bob Brown’s Bitch” “Burn the Witch”. Placards at anti-carbon tax Rally. March 2011
8. “Put her ( Clover Moore, Lord Mayor of Sydney) in the same chaff bag as Julia Gillard and throw them both out to sea.” *Alan Jones 2GB radio. July 2011
9. “You’ve got a big arse, Julia, just get on with it.” Germaine Greer. ABC. Q&A. March 2012
10. “(Australians)… ought to be out there kicking her to death.” Grahame Morris (former John Howard staffer turned lobbyist) Sky
Carisbrooke, besides Latham, the rest of the insulters are Liberal, very respectful, very civil.. And what we Laborites say or write on a minor blog like Pigs, not many people read… (minor in the sense that it does not have thousands of followers, even it deserves them )
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Wow, so Greer, is a Liberal. Good on her.
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I don’t know what she is, all I know that she can be terribly rude, so I just assumed she is from your side…she has mellowed with age….I never understood the fuss about her, where I come from, women did not need to be liberated, they were free….she has not come back to Oz , has she, Carisbrooke, she must feel more at home in your old country..
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That wasn’t the point Helvi. I was complaining that all you ever do is write things like Abbott, has big ears and that liberals have big mouths. I meant instead of writing about anything intellectual.
You then replied with a list of people with big mouths?
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Dear Carisbrooke, no one here expects you to write anything intelligent, so don’t worry…
😉
If you have time write something about food and cooking, no doubt you have good recipes to share, also you seem to know a lot about popular music, give us a list of your
favourites…and I might reply with a list of my most loved books…I’m serious.
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Before the election – what matters is how many boat arrivals and how many people.
After the election – we must keep this information secret.
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More rubbish. PTA, bollocks.
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PTA?
Parents and Teachers Ass. Public Transport Authority/ Parramatta Tennis Ass.
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You have such a delightful way with words.
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Well, I’ve tried ‘The Boris Johnson Effect’, and it goes straight over your heads. So I thought that a mallet might do the trick.
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You flatter yourself.
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Nice little article this article asking the question.
I’m becoming alienated from any attempt to join in and can barely think straight about anything, which might not be new, but certainly feels worsened.
I don’t know if you make it up as you go along that ALP voters are traditionally those things, Gez (re a comment below) but whatever, it doesn’t stand to reason that they now are on the piss or will continue to be on the piss as drinking piss stats are falling dramatically despite all attempts to keep them up (appropriate phraseology there) … as recently announced and forever is a day in politics. What the speculation is about who knows regards Labor voters not wanting on those grounds to vote if the vote wasn’t compulsory. Doesn’t stand to reason. I think reason might fly out the window.
I didn’t vote for years because I was entirely alienated, no vote and i wasn’t alone by some distance. I think that might not happen again to the degree it once did among disaffected and abused youth.
For the record , Viv you don’t seriously think “quite a few’ people who cast a vote for the Liberal Party are ignorant or any more ignorant than ‘quite a few’ who vote for the Nats, or Labor Party, Greens, or any other candidate along party lines. A decision that doesn’t comply with a preferred personal selection is not indicative of ignorance any more than understanding the structure of a Parliament or Standing Rules or anything else is evidence of not being ignorant as you well know …and a counter argument is that the focus is on the Liberals being an ignorant lot overall so that’s who we will be talking about along those lines. Incessantly. Right on. I’ve got it.
We do need a grass roots battle whereas what we have in the Lower House of Parliament isn’t it … and not either here isn’t it. I am across that much. The degree of misery of how people are living in positions of excruciating insecurity and penury, homelessness including that which is not recorded is not represented (and neither encouraged given the marked preference is for contributions that are humorous and/or commenters to have an ability with caustic). I keep recalling the frequent reference Bill Shorten of the Labor party makes to the campaign being fought on the grounds of personality, spot on and the emphasis being on fought, regardless he seems and Anthony Albanese to be mixing that idea up with ideological sameness and difference attempting to run a campaign for the leadership on the grounds of being entirely nice to each other, covering all bases.
We don’t HAVE to be entirely nice to each other to the point of disappearing out of the equation simply because an environment isn’t nice in the least a lot of the time…or do we. It’s not good for anybody’s mental health to be drawn into reading material that deviates into slanging generalisations.
It is not thoughtful writing even to hold up a flag supporting generalisations sufficient to drive anyone to drink. Who would want an environment where barflies are so squeaky nice about what the other says however that it is near impossible to put a cigarette paper between them speaking literally … and that regardless of how really awful they are by default (as if according to a pact) to others standing at the door looking in who are excluded. [Rabble, rabble, inside and out.]
By that same token who wants an environment where politics is about drawing support and/or attempting to along lines of observations of the presentation of, as a purely random example, Christopher Pyne who is not an unattractive human being but lean and relatively healthy looking … and has a funny voice and so do I, but Christopher has the guts to get on with it despite the slings and arrows and isolation…or Barnaby Joyce who has the biggest smile in the world when he lets it rip in comfort especially provoked as result of his recent success and so on and on and on. I always begin to read every article and every comment considering each thoughtfully to the best of my ability and sure enough sooner every time, I feel alienated. I understand that the dominant voice is purported to be the left wing inasmuch as it supports the voters of the Labor Party and the Greens, so help us all if this is going to swing support to a left wing vote or for that matter an intention to pursue engagement in the political arena or needs of people of diverse electorates, needs that are rarely referenced. Savage earth.
No, I am not writing on behalf of Carisbrooke who is so persistently provocative I noticed after a while he is all over the place to the point I wondered if he was a stoolie trying to bring the pub unhinged. I think that wouldn’t be hard if all we have left participating actively is us. A number of people will not throw their hat in this ring or participate by sending in contributions. Hell, I’ve tried.
😦
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Hear hear. I find it incredibly off-putting too. It’s too much. Way over the top. It’s not what I thought the Pigs Arms was originally about and it is alienating. The relentless personal abuse of out of favour politicians (usually Liberals) and others (usually Liberals) is teeth grindingly awful. Ditto for the relentless negativity and distasteful sneering at anything in Australia that’s different from Holland or Scandinavia. The simple truth is that there is no perfect voting system. But people get to know the system they’re in and vote accordingly and our system is pretty good.
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Yes, hear, hear, let’s stick to the system. Our education is the best in the Southern Hemisphere.. Tasmanians belong to some of the most literate people in the world. We are going to build Sydney’s second airport. Our voting is the best because we like it like that. Our lecturers are wrong when they complain that students can’t string English together. Trains take twice as slow here because the times in Europe are faster and our train-wheels are smaller.
Our youths get blind drunk on Friday night and look for king hits because they are very happy. Our public hospitals are the best and it has the pamphlets and sticky tape to prove it. We wait two years to get a hip replacement because many can get around quite well with a walking stick, electric wheel chair, or hobble on one leg. If our schools are 26 on the list in reading and mathematics it is because they whinge and are un-patriotic and many don’t send their kids to Pymble Ladies or Tudor House..
The Pig’s arms is for all of us. Please Voice, give us your articles. It has been a long time.
I forgot; shall we revive the ”fast train” again or wait till next year. Choo, choo, choooo….
The above piece was from Bob Ellis blog as I thought it might be controversial enough to elicit some responses. There is nothing about Norway, Holland in it.
Of course comparisons are sometimes made.
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That’s the second or third time you’ve referenced Ellis’ blog in the last couple of weeks. I took a look and there’s an infinite supply of nasty-minded stuff there; a lot written by the man himself. At least he acknowledges it’s nasty; at least that’s the most generous interpretation I can put on his piece about how Labor should have written foul stuff like some of his in order to win the last election but they refused to because they’re too high-minded. The PA could only benefit if you were to take a leaf out of Labor’s book in this regard. At least this particular extract isn’t nasty.
The Pig’s Arms isn’t for all of “us” as far as I’m aware; it’s for all. Within reason I’m sure. “All of us” is infinitely fewer than the number of people visiting who might stay if they weren’t constantly subjected to negativity, carping (as opposed to considered) criticism and nasty insults.
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As for Holland/Scandinavia/Finland, it’s hardly necessary to look far to find an invidious comparison. In this case, just a bit further down the page.
Good on you for being proud of whatever country you want to be – just leave out the ignorant and inappropriate sneering comparisons. Wake up and smell the camellias. I actually read your article – you came SO CLOSE to getting why you don’t like camellias, but you just couldn’t get there. Hint: Prejudice isn’t in the genes.
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You seem to be unable to stop projecting your own failings and misery onto others and somehow hope that those failings will unhinge the other person. You should really stick to issues and stop personal attacks.
If there are subjects you feel should not be talked about, make an index of them and send it to Emmjay! I noticed my Camellia piece had nice responses and not in my wildest nightmare thought this was going to upset you so much.
Here is the Camellia piece. (Voice; don’t read it again!)
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Failings? Misery? Of course I have some as do we all, but it’s laughable for you to try to turn your prejudice, negativity and nastiness around on me.
It’s the tone, not the topics , that is the problem.
Nothing about the camellia piece upset me, nothing I said could be reasonably construed otherwise – in fact I recommend it to you.
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Why don’t you try and get To Kill a Mocking Bird banned? In it, one of the main characters gets his baton and proceeds to furiously beat Mrs Dubose’ camellias to shreds. How awful, and to think the book was written by a woman as well.
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Hint2 – the key to self-knowledge lies in one of the paragraphs where you could substitute any noun for camellia and it would still make perfect sense. You are SO close. It’s excruciating reading – like watching a cow trying to get our of a paddock and wondering idly why it just can’t figure out to push up the latch on the gate.
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So true about the cows.
They also look at the passing train idly until it disappears down the track and then turn back to graze on the green-green grass of their little patch of paradise.
I leave it to you to find a metaphor for “train”
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Alas, the train that came so close is self-awarenes. No wonder the paddock seems like paradise.
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Bzzzt! Wrong answer !
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hph, one of my mum’s cows, a young one, jumped over the fence in cow-paddock and started run towards home, maybe she wanted to get milked earlier than the usual time, she had to cross a railway line,a fast train run over her. It does not pay for the cows and females to have a mind of their own, to aspire to higher things…see what happened to Gillard.
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I have to buzz off too, hph. Weeds to dig, rooms to clean, food to buy. A giddy round of entertainment.
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Well… Log Off Then 🙂
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Yes, I know, any noun. Look Voice, I am clearly beyond redemption. At seventy three years old, do you still hold out any hope for me? I am beyond saving. So sad. Just let go of me. Cast me off into your deepest ocean of rotting wrecks and rusting anchors.
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No, the train hit a wombat, derailed, and passengers were transferred on a bus via Mittagong to Central station. There was no toilet on the bus and the driver had a camellia stuck in his lapel.
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Hi Shoe – yes I did write ” Personally I think quite a few of the totally ignorant just voted Liberal’ and in the same para “So they just voted out Labor against their own best interests.’ I should have emphasised ‘against their own best interests’ and I should have added that I am talking about ‘a few’ people I know. One family run a take-away/newsagency and have four children of whom two have intellectual disabilities. They have voted against Labor tax/depreciation benefits and education reforms which specifically would help them, a lot. I know that they listen to people like Alan Jones and never read a paper which is not filled with Liberal propaganda. We have the occasional chat about such matters. But they seek my help to write to the Council on matters of great concern to them (on three occasions). The simple fact is that some people just believe Labor is Bad and Liberal is Good. Discuss it with them and they can’t explain their attitude and they will repeat a lie. Finally, most of my comments here have been on the voting system and how it operates.
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Viv, as I have written here before, my friend who is very poor, still votes Liberal, no matter how I often I tell her that she is better off under Labor, she seems to think that by voting Liberal she has moved from working class to middle class.
Another friend asks me somewhat irritated: You are not poor H, so why do you support Labor.
My answer to her is: I want a reasonable quality of life for everybody, not just for myself, not everyone can be ‘ a leader’, there are plenty of ‘ leaners’ in every society.
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Another small explanation regarding my use of the word ‘ignorant’. Ignorant on the subject at hand. Not generally ignorant or ignorant of all things. Making decisions based on little knowledge, based on lies, not having an inquiring mind, accepting a lot on its face value – when it comes to politics and who should govern the country. Not the same as how well one can sew, mend, butcher an animal, cook, garden or build a house. As for Christopher Pyne – well yes – I have little of any good to say about him as a politician and I do know he can’t cook. I can’t think of anything intelligent he has ever said based on his ‘performance’ in QT in parliament and on any news on the TV or Q & A. He does laugh a lot.
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Viv, totally agree with you re Chris Pyne. He usually the first one to dish abuse…
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He IS
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The senate needs some sort of reform. That each state returns the same amount of senators is plainly wrong and not what those who designed this at federation intended. Heck Tasmania with a population of 500k returns the same amount as NSW with 7.5m. It’s easier to become a Senator in Tasmania than a member in the lower house. On top of that the population of the ACT is only about 100k less than Tasmania yet it only returns 2 senators. There needs to be some sort of proportional representation to reflect the numbers living in each state but not to the detriment of the smaller states.
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Exactly – we have a party system with independents thrown in – not a state system. We’ve all known for decades that the Senate has nothing to do with looking after state rights. I don’t know who has the guts to do a referendum on this. NT and ACT not being states were lucky to be given some recognition. If that can be done one would think there must be an easier way to rectify the matter. I would have to study the Constitution but not in the mood to do that right now.
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Watching Sussan Ley last night, I thought how she eerily reminded me of Mirabella…
Why do almost all Liberal politicians have big mouths or at least large chins: Abbott, Mirabella, Kelly O’Dwyer, Andrew Robb, Scott Morrison , I have trying to erase Chris Pyne out of my mind, it has been successful: has he too got a big mouth?
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been trying
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Ley did look awful on the tele – make up was shit and angle shit. Libs are not attractive but Ley is better looking that it appeared. She is my local member – met her a couple of times. It is a hop step and a jump over into Indi from here. Having to try to not answer the question of women in Cabinet stuff – she made a hash of it. Should have just said ‘I can’t possibly answer that, can I’.
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She was a light weight I thought, nothing more than party rhetoric and incapable of original thought. O’Dwyer makes a better fist of things and she suffers foot in mouth disease. Burke had little trouble from her.
It’s the sort of air headedness that we’ll get from the tories for the next three year. Not a good start with Scott the racist trying to hide things I notice.
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It is all up the shit Algy. Sussan is lightweight, but harmless so far. Yes, all can do now if parrot the Abbott crap and learn to get tough and throw shit around. It does not suit her one bit. She is no Mirabella. It was completely natural for Mirabella to be a snarling attack dog. Ley just looks silly and she should decline to talk about matters which are clearly better left to the ghastly Morrison.
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She appears harmless but better than being a parrot than the B grade tennis player. could this be hat we’ll expect over then next three years tory talking heads parroting without any original thoughts.
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Yup. It is obvious they are all clueless. If they don’t do some homework, serious study on stuff like international affairs, the law as it is (not they’re idiotic interpretations), climate change (not going to happen of course having just illegally sacked the advisory bodies etc) and, oh well, just about everything – they are going to look hopeless at home and abroad. The country and the world has changed and they haven’t caught up with this either. Things are not simple.
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their – what are my fingers doing? Not paying attention.
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So, don’t you all think it odd that just two parties form government? Do you know for sure that most would prefer that? Surely the Greens and other parties should also be in Government. Why is this ONE country divided into different electorates? The differences in sociological or economic preferences are not represented in government anyhow.
I would like a national approach to government because we are one nation. When was the last time we had a referendum on this?
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We haven’t had a referendum on the electoral system. Electoral boundaries do change over time in order to keep numbers in an electorate within a certain range. This was not always the case – at one stage there could be an electorate with 80,000 voters in say a metropolitan area and another in rural area with say 50,000. So now we have some rural electorates which cover a quarter of NSW and many metropolitan ones which cover a few square kilometres. The Nat and the Libs form a coalition to outnumber Labor. Labor might be able to form government by forming a coalition with the Greens and Independents but none of them will. It’s just a numbers game Gerard, not – in the end – a party game. I’m surprised you don’t understand it.
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If it is a numbers game and the numbers of labor voters are higher than Liberal, how come the majority vote doesn’t count?
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The Libs and the Nats gang up. If anything the result should be a Labor government until the Libs and Nats sit in parliament and formally agree to form a coalition government – like what happened with the hung parliament. Other than that they should combine to be one party. It is a con on the public. It is stupid too. As long as they combine they continue to outvote Labor on the floor of parliament and therefore Labor can’t govern until it get more seats that those two parties combined. All I can say is that National voters are idiots because the Liberals don’t give a shit about rural areas.
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If you end up with numbers in an electorate of say 80k in the city and say 50k in the country, it will be subject to rorting. WA and Queensland have been blighted over the years by gerrymanders due to disproportionate numbers in each seat. WA still has gerrymandered seats, though they do cover vast areas in the north.
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I think federally that electorates are all now within 10% leeway. Ley’s seat gets bigger because of this. It goes from Corryong to Broken Hill. There is no community of interest. I think State boundaries should be abolished for fed electorates. The community of interest would see Mildura being in with Broken Hill and Albury joining Wodonga and surrounds. It’s stupid.
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I agree with that, state borders should be abolished for federal electorates. Areas would be better served by spheres of influence. Albury Wodonga would be better served by one or possibly two local members, not the vast reaching seats they are now. Same with the Gold Coast and Tweed. Perhaps also the size of seats could be reduced and the number of seats in the parliament increased to maybe 200 or 250.
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Complicated alright. A High Court challenge is still underway on the compulsory voting ‘right’ The very word ‘vote’ means ‘choice’ indicating that it could be wrong to then make it compulsory by punishment and take away ‘choice’. Oddly enough Nick Minchin is supporting the High Court Challenge against compulsory voting.
Does anyone know more?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-24/minchin-backs-voting-legal-fight/4277466
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It is not odd that Minchin supports abolition of compulsory voting. He wants the American system. I don’t – it would be awful, open to massive abuse.
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I think Minchin wants to abolish the compulsory vote because it favours Labor. Many ALP’s voters might not care to vote, traditionally they would be poor, semi literate and on the piss and not vote if it wasn’t compulsory.
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That is what Liberals think. No one actually knows. Personally I think quite a few of the totally ignorant just voted Liberal (the other week) because they fell for the shit ads on the TV or the MSM repeating how crap Labor was. So they just voted out Labor against their own best interests. Whatever, no one really knows.
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With the move away from beer to wine, the future will probably see more libs on the piss. Geez, did you watch Sussan Ley last night on Late line? Those huge lips going around and around. I thought it was a Mirabella clone. I had trouble sleeping afterwards.The horror.
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This is what I was after – https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/SeparationofPowers
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It talks about separation of powers but doesn’t seem to address representation of all parties that people have voted for in Parliament. Surely, if more people voted for a party than any other party, why isn’t that expressed in the chosen Government. There is some kind of rort going on, I am sure.
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It is not the Westminster ‘system’. It is just the principle of separation of powers. I need to look it up as have forgotten the exact wording. What we have is Australian with a bit pinched from the USA and some references to the UK. Our voting system is unique. Some of it is outdated (equal Senate rep for each State for instance), federal seats not crossing borders, and the preferential voting ought to be optional.
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Yes, but if more vote labor than liberal, how is it fair we have a government with less voter’s support than the party with more voters support?
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Yes, that’s what my father from Holland used to ponder about. 60 years later and it is still the same. I tell you why it is.
The motto: “if it isn’t broke don’t fix it”.
In Holland the motto would be, “break it and make it even better”.
The ultimate insult is that we have compulsory voting (by punishment)as well. We HAVE to vote. Just like Uruguay,
Argentina, Brazil, Australia,
The Congo. /,Luxemburg, Nauru, Peru.
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