Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has instructed departmental and detention centre staff to publicly refer to asylum seekers as ‘‘illegal’’ arrivals and as ‘‘detainees’’, rather than as clients.
The directive has been criticised as a ‘‘profound’’ shift by a leading asylum seeker agency, which says the new terminology is designed to dehumanise people.
In an email to detention centre staff, obtained by Fairfax Media, a department official writes: ‘‘The department has received correspondence from the minister clarifying his expectations about the department’s use of terminology. Accordingly we as [sic] that our service providers also adhere to the below instructions.’’
One wonders what ingrained G-gnome is at play here? Having watched the excellent program on Sydney’s Opera House history and the absurd philistine antics of Davis Hughes at the time and the display of similar sentiments by Scott Morrison today towards all that is ‘foreign and out of the norm’, I remain unconvinced that much progress has been made since the sixties and seventies. Are we to remain forever stuck in an old 78 LP record groove? .
With the building of the Opera House and the ultimate sacking of the architect Utzon, a rift existed between the European, specifically Scandinavian craft approach to architecture that Utzon so utterly embodied, and the less individualistic approach of the Anglo-Saxon model of construction widely adopted in Australia. Pragmatism always reigning above the creative.
It seems Australia remains struggling with the concept of accepting differences.
Window Dresser's Arms, Pig & Whistle 
ATOMOU: That’s not a pun-it’s nearer to being a Haiku. So here’s my effort….
High mountain passes,
A pissing horse does fart;
Now bull rushes blow.
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Where’s the pun in that, VA?
Whereas MY spun was bwilliant! I mean, D. Mention! D. bloody Mention! How much cleverererer a spun can you get than that? (Fem: D. Mentia)
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As I said, mine is a Haiku.
No offence, but your pun was beyond this humble scribe.
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I’ll have know, young VA… in the precincts of the Kashima shrine, there is a post with my haiku upon it! Wrote it back in ’04 and the Mayor approved its posting! Buggered if I can remember it now but it was about springs and swords (The museum there boasts to have the longest sword ever made on the planet!)
Daughter (who was teaching at the schools there, at the time) was very proud of father!
So there!
Haiku!
Pfft! Try writing a poem in the Sapphic meter! That’d test your testes, if you had testes to test!
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And I thought you might be pleased that I set your intelligence as being superior to mine. Sob, sob!
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Ah, sorry, VA! Didn’t mean to hurt you in any way.
Incidentally, I told my daughter about it earlier in the morning and she reminded me that the Mayor had it translated (with her help) into Japanese before it was written on a little plaque and screwed onto the post, along with many, many other mayor-approved haiku!
So, it wasn’t really just my own work!
So, no need for shedding tears over my unsurpassable intelligence, VA! I am but a god, after all!
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Oh yeah?
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Shoes:
“Voice, if that is who you are…”
Extremely disappointed to see you have been sucked in by the tag team! It’s exactly what they wanted to do: Sow doubt in the minds of people about who Voice is, so that they could demolish her character, just as they have tried to demolish mine with all sorts of egregious accusations.
Nonsense really, that said far more about them than about me and a hell of a lot less about Voice.
You are mistaken, Shoes and I think you’d be the sort of person who’d want to try and investigate the matter, rather than to continue accepting blindly the tag team’s melancholy accusations – all that vindictive rubbish they throw at anyone they happen not to like.
They are insulting a number of people in here. All you need to do is go back a little and read over some of their insults. Gez wrote a whole article of them which, somehow disappeared once the vitriol began to drip off the page. Who -what sort of a mind- would do that?
The same sort which would insult Voice and Jules for absolutely no comprehensible reason other than to be nasty.
Others have fallen into the same trap as you. It’s a pity. It’s sad and it’s pitiful. Disagreement on issues is very much a human thing. We can disagree on the name of a rose or the character of Hitler and Mother Tereza. But we can remain human. And we can throw vernacular insults at one another. You know, words. Like bastard, or bitch or dickhead. No big deal! Words can be charming and can add huge dimensions to a thought. But to lie, to try and hurt others so as to gain some sort of distinction -well, what difference is there between that and what Brutus did?
Googlehoover was right to ask himself what the hell happened here? What has changed that some of us are feeling bruised while others simply go on with the delusion and, benightedly, with adding to that hurt.
Something has sucked the life -the spirit out of this pub; the old bonhomie, the cheer and I can pin point the very moment when this happened; but I won’t.
Shoes, Voice has asked you to open your mind and to think again about what you said. Just open your mind and do some checking. If you still think she’s what Gez and Helvi say she is then, she’ll cop that, as would I were you to do some searching about me and emerged with the same views.
In the end, no one but no one can please everyone every time, all the time.
But we owe it to others not make false judgements against them. Owe it to them and to us. We certainly owe it to us to walk with a clear and considered mind, free of doubt.
What is fascinating here, in a very bizarre way, is the way people picked sides. Whoosh! A single little wind and they all fall over into the red corner. There were never any corners once. Just different political or philosophical views. Delicious stuff. That’s why I got here.
Alas, the deliciousness has been drained out the place and the discourse has been poisoned with hate and banal and, apart from the occasional story by the Mikes, boring pieces about meandering memories.
I don’t know what can lift this place and, believe me, as busy as I am, I have tried a number of times to contribute something; but it is just too hard to write well when you’re feeling dispirited and dispirited is how I feel right now. Your echoing of Gez’s sentiments and with the same fervour adds to that disposition, Shoe.
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ATOMOU: Good one. However I’ve always had the feeling that MacBeth is a little too lazy to be indulging in random ambition. Whereas Lady MacBeth is a right royal stinker!
Aaron in Titus Andronicus reveals a neat characterisation of evil ambition; directed to the wretched Lavinia. Even Hamlet was ambitious to be king. And, if you believe Shakespeare wasn’t a superb mouthpiece for the greater glory of the Tudors, you could always bring Richard III into the equation. I’d like to put in Iago but his evil frightens me.
Of the short list I have weighed in with I would have to suggest Scott Morrison’s ambition is line ball with Aaron’s ambition. He merely mistakes the Australian electorate for the wretched Lavinia.
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Quite so on all accounts, VA. But I did say I’d only mention one of them.
Shakespeare had the human character down pat. He learned his psych from the old Greeks, of course (who had learned it from an even older greek, Homer) but he (Shakespeare) was unrivalled in the field. Freud was a drivelling moron, compared to the pommy bard.
I can understand what you mean when you say Macka was “a little too lazy” though I wouldn’t rush to say so. Shakespeare was playing around with supernatural elements there -like in many other plays, of course- and so he had to give these elements their temporal dignity. Fate, witches, ghosts, floating daggers, Sleep (Macbeth murdered Sleep) etc, etc, etc all need their own time to have their way with a human, particularly one who, along with his battle mate, Banquo, was the most loyal defender of the King.
Treachery must take its time to worm its way into a good, virtuous soul!
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I seem to have misplaced your comment. I’m sure you said only one. Such was my enthusiasm for someone quoting Shakespeare i just had to butt in on your party.
Am I forgiven?
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Absolutely, VA. Feel free to do so any time.
The comment is down below a bit, at 1:45 pm.
“…Almost all of his tragedies are geared, driven and propelled by that uniquely human characteristic. A single example will suffice: King Duncan’s death was caused by it…”
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CARISBROOKE: In your little eulogy to the Liberal party you wrote “”Also with nothing you can’t build hospitals, schools, or virtually anything else. “” The implication that the Labor Party fails to do these things is overwhelming. Especially when you go on to mention our taxes paying for civil servants/doctors and so on.
The fact that you call me stupid is another case-I mentioned in a previous comment to you-are placing your own deficiencies onto another person. Are you always so Quixotic; or just plain amateurish?
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Really Carisbrooke, you have been very rude here. I see below that Venise missed your point, but if I had a gold coin for every time I or anyone else has missed someone’s point, I’d be typing this from my yacht near the Whitsunday islands.
V is an infrequent poster here and you have rushed to judgement.
Redeem yourself, sir, or it will be pistols at twenty paces. Or at the very least a resounding tut, tut, tut, tut, tut, tut , tut, tut.
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It is indeed a pleasure to mix metaphors-whatever-with someone who loves the immortal
Bard and the person who suggests Freud was an amateur by comparison.
There are times when I almost sympathise with those scribes who write all those books and articles saying the Bard wasn’t the Bard. (I am about to read James Shapiro’s book, ‘Contested Will’) Even if they-(the mysterious THEY-) do prove The Earl of Southampton, or, Kit Marlowe or Mary Sidney, wrote it no one is going to delete the Bard’s name from existing theses are they? It is almost frightening that one individual had so much knowledge about the vagaries of the human condition and of their devious thought processes.
Nice to hear from you again.
Brush up your Shakespeare, start quoting him now. Runs the opening lines of an old showbiz song. I’ve forgotten the rest.
Cheers
V
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VOICE: Well thank you kindly. I don’t take well to bullys. Do you?
I love puns which moves me to comment…..
Pistols at twenty paces and may the best man wince.
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I would suggest puns at twenty paces … but your reputation as a gun punner precedes you. 🙂
P.S. Carisbrooke is just being grumpy. Give him a second chance; we all have off days.
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Much better if you add a couple of spoons:
Spuns at twenty spaces and on May the best needle shall pass through the eye of a camel.
D. Mention
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WTF, WTF, WTF Ladies and gentlemen?
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An excellent summary of the situation. You sound like a very, very nice person. I’m about to write an article about how hard done by I am. If you love refugees and dislike bullies, clap your hands and write a supportive comment on it.
———————————-
Just couldn’t help lampooning gerard yet again. It’s irresistible.
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Is there a froyd in the house?
…so many voices in one head.
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I know the answer to that. Carisbrooke’s farther was an aircraft engineer by trade and a socialist by way of politics. He warned the young Julian never to fly Aeroflot. His tradecraft trumped his politcs apparently.
Am I right Carisbrooke? Tell me what an excellent memory I have!
Only just noticed that. Yes you’re correct.
You must be Voice?
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Oh, go stick your head in a donkey bucket, Julian!
As a matter of fact, SM DOES have a good memory – I don’t recall an Aeroflot warning.
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I rememeber on one occasion you pleading for calm and the avoidance of Left v Right cliches in response to every article. That was in Oct 08. I was preparing my father in law’s BAS in the in-laws sun room on a glorious spring evening at Concord West.
That’s why I ‘Control’ ‘F’ed the text VoR at the similar themed article the other day.
On the same evening I subtly chided Adz Inc about his lengthy comments by posting an exactly 500 word reply the ended “… and remember brevity is the soul of”
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I used to live in a shoebox.
Actually, I mentioned to Voice, that I remembered you saying that you thought granny was a plaything for a killer whale!
Where is granny?
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I’ve been concerned about my need to correct harmless people saying silly things for a long time. And the cold thrill it gives me, that I imagine, I must share with an orca who happens on a wounded seal.
For this reason alone in quite moments I wonder if I am bully.
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Scott Morrison concedes (reluctantly) that boat people have a right to seek refuge or asylum. According to the laws of the UN Charter they, the boat people, also are making an ‘illegal entry’. So, there is the choice of naming them either as ‘asylum seekers’ (refugees) or ‘illegals’. Scott Morrison deliberately chose the de-humanising and belittling ‘illegals’ or /and detainees.
It shows him to be a man not worthy of holding any position least of all that of a Government Minister.
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What on earth is wrong with Sieg Heil Morrison? Is he a thick as the proverbial plank; the son of a migrant family; a Catholic of the fundamentalist school; was he molested at school; the butt of a schools bullying-by his class mates, or by teachers; was his family desperately poor? These are some of the questions I’ve asked myself in order to understand why Lead Bottom Morrison is so filled with hatred.
As for the equally despicable Tony Rabbott; how dare he allow such a sick scumbag into parliament.
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Why/how did Zieg Heil Morrison ever get to wave his ominous tat and spiteful/evil rants in a major political party in Australia? Perhaps this country needs a royal commission into its parliamentary candidates.
Even worse….What a shocking condemnation of the people who voted him into power.
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Well, the people who voted for Labor, helped create the Kamps. What has it got to do with Morrison – he’s Liberal – not ALP? He’s only been there a couple of weeks!
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I don’t know you CARISBROOKE: But I can tell you that ambition is the driver of Lead Bottom Morrison. What will a man/woman not do in the name of ambition?
Either the man is an embryonic Laurence Olivier, or he is filled with gall and hatred. You take your choice. I have already chosen my option.
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I’ll confess to not knowing mush about him. I guess the country will find out and make a judgement at the next election in 3 years – if he lasts.
I suppose I could google him, but I’ll just wait. he’s only been in his job a few days.
Don’t worry, I will criticise him if he does the wrong thing by our country.
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“What will a man/woman not do in the name of ambition?”
Shakespeare showed us the purest forms of ambition. Almost all of his tragedies are geared, driven and propelled by that uniquely human characteristic. A single example will suffice: King Duncan’s death was caused by it.
Morrison is not MacBeth but one could argue he could quite easily play the role of his malevolent jester. A similar judgement could be made for almost all but four of the rest of his parliamentary partners.
However, Rudd, Gillard, Burke and Zeus only knows how many of the rest of that cannibalistic coterie could also play the same role of malevolent or foolish jesters.
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I am continually enraged that Australians do things differently to Scandananvians. Australians struggle with the concept of accepting difference.
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WE ARE A RICH COUNTRY! WE ARE A RICH COUNTRY! WE ARE A RICH COUNTRY!
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Good.
Then we can share it with refugees. Tell that to Tony Abbott.
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Yes, rich in minerals. Poverty stricken in elementary decency.
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If we were poor we would embrace refugees and share no matter how little we had..
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Well said Gerard.
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I am continually enraged that we do the same things as Americans.
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…Whereas, I am continually enraged at man’s stupidity and intellect and dopiness.
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And psychopaths are cool, calculated and rational.
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How do you know?
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CARISBROOKE: Then be enraged about the one parliamentarian (Liberal) who when on the backbench, voted for Tony Rabbott to lead the Party.
It is thanks to this person we are presently governed by a mob of people who are flag bearers for everything that is enshrined in lower middle class mentality. This spavined group who pride themselves as representing the less than idyllic cultural mores of the rural brigade, not to mention the madder elements of the far right wing electorate. A Liberal National Party that worships mediocrity, values stupidity, abhors free speech, and is heavily infected with the dreaded concept of ‘Censorship of all possible forms of communication to be essential in the twenty-first century.’
A proud upholder of everything which encapsulates all that is sacred by aged members of the Country Women’s Association. A Liberal(?) Party wherein is retained all the old colonial hang-ups of inverted snobbery and fear. A national joke of a Party whose members are enslaved by the British royal family and the idolisation of celebrity. One that tolerates and even respects David Flint, leader of the Monarchist lobby group. Their glorious leader who grovels to America and our Asian neighbours. With a narcissistic leader whose true status in life should have been on a par with a welder. . A man who instead of intellectual capacities idolises sport above all other qualities. A whole political Party which enshrines the common man, and whose unwritten code is in the mantra ‘NO THOUGHT IS GOOD THOUGHT.’ A leader who disciplines/strangles any members who do not hold to these view.
This is the tragic bunch of 1950s old men who have Cardinal Pell advising their leader’s policies while reverentially holding the late Bob Santamaria (DLP) as their once-upon-a-time idol. A group of people who happily see Australia being dragged back into the ethos of the 1950s.
Whoever this one person is can rest assured they will be the lynchpin removed from the axle of Australian democracy. TAKE A BOW YOU BASTARD.
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Well, a nice little meaningless spray Venise, but let it all out. then you’ll feel better.
There’s probably some good conspiracy blogs that you could vent in. maybe you do.
I vote Liberal, because I believe that the job creators have an important role. We have traded for a few thousand years now, and it’s extremely hard to trade with nothing.
Also with nothing you can’t build hospitals, schools, or virtually anything else. You can also buy expertise. Good surgeons, for instance, once you have educated them. they earn good money – as do the civil servants that we employ, with our taxes.
There you go. I hope that you appreciated my rapid response. And thanks for the attention
All the best Carisbrooke.
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What’s your contribution, BTW.
I don’t mean that you have to disclose who you are, however a vague summery would help to know why you are so angry….Especially at censorship; I didn’t know we had any. I have only been here 25 years. is it something that you used to have?
Is it here? …http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
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Our mining riches ought to deliver us an opera house every year, forget about the ugly casinos…
We shout about what a rich country Australia is but at the same time we complain that we can’t spend soo much money on something unique and beautiful as Utzon’s Opera House…..
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That’s when Australia talks loudest. ‘Mega casinos’ for Brisbane, there are seven of them . No worries, catch some of the 300 million middle class Chinese to part with their money so we can build more casinos so that even more will come, so more casinos more Chinese gamblers. Tourism at its ugliest. Packer is getting richer, a real plus for Australia.
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CARISBROOKE: “”We have traded for a few thousand years now..”” Really? How frightfully clever of you: did you trade through a nascent osmosis?
It worries me not that you vote Liberal National Party-without the Country/National Party vote the Liberals, read conservatives, would never get into power. Makes the Labor Party and the trade union support look like amateurs.
Going on the assumption that critics/people invariably accuse other people of their own deficiencies, I am led-by your accusations-to suppose you are the one who believes in conspiracy theories.
Your paragraph about the Liberal (Coalition) and the raising of taxes to pay for hospitals, etc has given me one of the best laughs I’ve had today. Are you trying to tell me the Labor Party does not levy taxes?
Come now CARISBROOKE, do get a few basic facts right. There’s a good chap
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Where did I write about raising taxes? You’re philosophy is so stupid that it’s not worth a discussion.
I can see that you’re trying to be argumentative, but your not having much luck, are you?
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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/bushfires/tony-abbott-puts-himself-in-line-of-fire/story-fngw0i02-1226743492769?from=public_rss&utm_source=The%20Australian&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=39588874
Let’s get back to Humans. Eh
I see Willy Shorten was there. Well he was in the coffee shop at the bottom of the hill, of course. He had slept well (at the nearby Hilton resort) in the silk pyjamas that his mummy-in-law gave him and Julia sent Tonsorial Tim over – just in case his hair got rustled by the heat… He was after all only 15 ks away.
Some of your article may be attractive to some gerard…let’s see?
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Let’s just hope we are not going to get charged for that.
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Little Willy, has plenty of dough, don’t you worry about him. He wears frilly knickers, bought by the taxpayer’s money – through The GG’s stipend.
He won’t last if he tries to take us to a DD.
It’ll be curtains for Little Willy. Mind you, he’ll do what Paul Howes tells him, he’s only a frilly knickered ‘sock puppet’.
Boy am I going to give him hell on the drum.
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Carisbrooke:
You just can’t leave it alone can you? Instead of sticking to what the piece is about;. (Morrison’s inability to at least give those boat people having survived and arrived here a modicum of empathy) he has to lower it just one more notch by referring them as ‘illegals or detainees’..
It doesn’t really auger well for your standing either Carisbrooke. You seem to forever stand on the side of those de-humanising boat people. Why are you like that? Where does it stem from?
Convince me you are not like the Morrisons of this world. Was your father a policeman or did you grow up in Bronte and became brutalised by suburban environment? Give us a hint. Did you suffer a private education and perhaps an only ‘boys school’?
Tell us.
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I know the answer to that. Carisbrooke’s farther was an aircraft engineer by trade and a socialist by way of politics. He warned the young Julian never to fly Aeroflot. His tradecraft trumped his politcs apparently.
Am I right Carisbrooke? Tell me what an excellent memory I have!
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Make up your mind Sea Mendez. Why are you also writing under Southern Cross Tattoo and DNHF? As I was also entrusted to oversee the P/Arms blog I noticed that all those three pseudos have the same e-mail address. Not that that is an issue. No one cares.
Why though not stick to the issue of the article, which was about Morrison dehumanising people? Why use three pseudos to belittle and bully ?
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At one stage there young Carisbooke lived in the Isle of Wight.
In answer to your other question, Sea Mendez uses D-N-H-F to parody Northern European rednecks, and Southern Cross Tattoo to parody Northern European rednecks’ characterisation of Australians. Have you considered using the full name for D-N-H-F, SM? Otherwise it’s impossible to get the point except if, like me, you noticed the arrival of D-N-H-F on the Drum.
Whoops, I’ve changed the topic to Carisbrooke and Sea Mendez. Only gerard is allowed to do that.
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Yes, but are you enraged about the red neck antics of Scott Morrison? That’s what this piece is about.
As far as I know, Morrison is an Australian.
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Thanks for the invitation, but group enragement sessions aren’t my thing.
While my kids were playing kids league soccer we went to a few of the Northern Spirit at home matches, so I do get the attraction of the tribal thing. I waved a flag and we all booed (good naturedly) when the opposition ran onto the field. It was quite fun.
This seems far healthier to me than compulsively latching on to political things to be enraged about. It all seems terribly bitter and you never seem to feel any better.
I wouldn’t join in for quids.
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No group needed just a little rage by yourself will do. I won’t tell anyone. Just keep it behind the Venetian blinds if you prefer.
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I’m surprised D-N-H-F’s identity is a mystery to anyone given his habit of dropping blatant hints verging on blatant admissions.
This article isn’t about Scott Morrison. Its you usual whimsical/current event segueing into comparing Australia to Sweden.
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Gerard, I don’t know if this will ever get through to you, because I think that somehow, you are beyond help. (And obdurate.) However I will try once more….slowly.
I am against drownings. Remember now?
Has the penny dropped, yet?
You are encouraging them to drown, as Tony Abbott, has said on numerous occasions.I’ve even tabled his comments?
However, leaving Abbott, Shorten Rudd and you out of it all together, this is my personal position.
I AM AGAINST DROWNINGS…Got it now? So stop causing it.
Another equation is:
Drownings:
Gerard & Helvi….For
Julian………………Against
I’m afraid I cannot be any clearer. However, please let me know if you didn’t understand that?
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Sorry, but the link to Scandinavia (A rift existed between the European, specifically Scandinavian craft approach to architecture that Utzon so utterly embodied, and the less individualistic approach of the Anglo-Saxon model of construction widely adopted in Australia.) was made by http://theoperahouseproject.com/ie/transcripts/The-Tenacity-Of-Davis-Hughes.htm
Check it out!
Sea Mendez,I know you are desperately hoping to find something, anything at all, against Oosterman, Norway, Scandinavia but I can’t help you out in that arena at all.
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Carisbrooke:
Can we just get to those that have NOT drowned!. They are here, having survived their dreadful journey. What have the Carisbrookes of this world got against treating them as ‘people’ and ‘refugees’ or even’ asylum seekers’ and not as ‘illegals’ or ‘detainees’.
As I pointed out above, Scott Morrison is calling and ordering his cabinet colleagues to call them except by the dehumanising term ‘illegals’ .He is just as much allowed to name them for what they are, ‘refugees or asylum seekers.’
It is not in Morrison’s heart to call them by the far more compassionate name of ‘refugee’ even though he concedes that they all have the right to seek asylum.
Now, tell me Carisbrooke. What do you call them?
Don’t carry on like a silly schoolboy with Gerard and Helvi wanting them to be drowned.
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D-N-H-F identity was not a total mystery to me. Some months ago, maybe even during last year, when it materialised at the Drum after Gerard & Helvi’s comments on certain articles regarding refugees and education I always had a suspicion that it was you.
….I wasn’t a data analyst just for fun, sea mendez. …I was right.
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Again hph I don’t think one needed any special skill given the hints/admissions.
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Yes, …but, there were no hints and admissions in those times at the Drum.
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I didn’t think that you would get it Gerard.
The people get on boats because you encourage them.
if you reject the boats,. there are no boats to travel on, so consequently, the smuggler’s model is broken and there are no drownings. Gettit?
Everything else; the Kamps set up by Keating and Rudd were a deterrent to drowning, however not as effective as having “NO BOATS”.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with Morrison. He has only been the anti drowning Minister for a few weeks.
Forget his character, He may be a horrible person. I don’t know. He’s inherited the situation from The ALP………………………………..Do you understand that?
I’ll just repeat it…He (Morrison) has inherited the situation from The ALP!!
I can understand you not wanting to take the blame for the 1200 deaths and squirmig around trying to blame Morrison after a couple of weeks. But he “didn’t” encourage them. You did.
You keep on and on and on and on saying let them come and be settled. Well f**k me, what do you think there gonna do?. ? ?Well, of course, they’re gonna get on the bleedin boats.
Stop squirming and step up to the plate. Apologise, and ask Rudd too. He started the recent drownings.
How can it be progressive to encourage people to get on leaky boats? The correct thing to do is stop the boats — after all, they could ‘fly’ in with all of the money $$$$ they would have spent.
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BTW, Gerard, it is a breach of trust when you disclose information about patrons of the pub. It’s just not on.
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Hph I would argue the were hints on The Drum. Voice didn’t need them and picked it on the first post. And then at the same article Den-Nordiska got too clever for himself and posted under his regular name by accident.
The only time Nordy agrees with me is when discuss the ethical tension of using more than one identity.
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I stick to one pseud at a time..Now.
I used to have a family of Hadrons, but they’re resting. The father comes out to play sometimes. However, everyone knows it’s me. It’s just to reinforce my sick ideology that people need to work harder, so that more tax can be collected.
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Why would anybody here be downing Gerard for posting a reference to an issue. Why particularly the various methods of pure bastardry…but particularly reducing everything that is said to a bitch-hate reference to LNP and Labor, in the most simplistic terms!?
Changing the subject. Even on grounds of eg disinterest…that is nonsensical!?
Every appearance is intention to destroy this entire project and drive people away.
It sure rootin’ tootin’ looks worse than that, like deliberate destruction of the people who are attached to keeping this project going, either sending them up or attempting to compromise them.
Online sites need to be monitored insofar as participating individuals cannot ever be lost in regard of who they actually are ie so all pseudonyms lead to the original poster.
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That’s been the tactics that Voice,Sea-Mendez and Co have used on many different blogs from which she gets continually banned. However she comes back under a different pseudo and starts the game all over again. It is just a pathetic bullying game where she pretends others are backing her opinion but by using different pseudos.
She must be in a bad way and I feel sorry for her.
Mike on several occasions has asked for people to stop personal abuse, but…I think Mike should now step in.
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Gez, if this really is Voice who we have known here previously, then I regret to think that very much, that is frightening. Appearance is however that two or three people are ‘Voice’. I am anxious about that. The persona is inconsistent.
Some of the material that has been posted will exclude all hope of our getting readers or contributors. I have felt for a while unable to post a contribution because of what that risks.
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Some 2 years ago or so there was another strange post by Voice accusing me of beating up Helvi. It was subsequently explained by her as an esoteric joke. Helvi and I did not see this as funny. She left the Pigs Arms as a consequence and I also threatened to take legal action.
Voice returned a few months ago and since than the discontent is flaring up again while using different pseudos pretending supporting her attacks on me and Helvi.
I like robust debate about issues, politics or countries but not unfair personal attacks.
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Gosh sandshoe; that’s just awful. Do you really believe gerard and Helvi’s persistent and nasty accusations about me, under the transparent disguise that it is ME being mean to THEM? Why would you? Who are these other two posters you think are me? SURELY not the old tired Sea Mendez thing? And who could the other one possibly be? And WHY would you think they are me?
Sandshoe, dear sandshoe, limericist extraordinaire and punner abominablaire, could it be that the persona of those 2 or 3 people you think are me is inconsistent because they AREN’T me? Anyway, I’m telling you they aren’t me. Whoever they are.
Frankly, I’m shocked that you would believe gerard about this. And quite stunned.
As for Sea Mendez, he came onto this blog in the first place to clear up Helvi and gerard’s persistent accusations that he and I are the same person. It is Helvi who is the main culprit here and I addressed thisto give her the opportunity to apologise and clear the air, or at least air her grievances honestly, but she chose not to do so.
https://pigsarms.com.au/boeuf-tartare-avec-un-oeuf/comment-page-10/#comment-65543
https://pigsarms.com.au/boeuf-tartare-avec-un-oeuf/comment-page-10/#comment-65606
(and comments round about).
I quite like Sea Mendez’ style and his honesty, but I am not him. I would have no problem with being him – the problem I have is with the bitterness and nastiness of the accusations of being him; not the accusation itself. If I were him I’d be proud.
I seldom bother criticizing the fundamental dishonesty of so many of gerard’s writings for many reasons, the biggest one being that doing so is mostly pointless, and it embroils me in the ugliness. But when I do rebut gerard (as I just did last night on his piece “Why does Australia imprison women, children and men?”) I’m happy to use my regular pseudo, Voice.
I use the word dishonesty after due consideration. It isn’t certain that any particular one of his pieces is intentionally misleading – it could be that his personal bias is so overwhelming he isn’t able to notice any facts that don’t support it. But for him to propagate the twisted lie that I accused him of beating up Helvi removes the shadow of a doubt.
And gerard totally misread the reason for me leaving the Pigs Arms. It certainly wasn’t out of fear of his grotesque threat and bullying.
If it’s worrying you, ‘shoe, email me.
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Voice, I advanced no case about your identity, but rather that I didn’t know and as well you are describing a scenario of “side taking” that bears not a skerrick of resemblance to anything I have said or been involved in.
The case I have put was simple and straight forward as a solution and is a generic principle. All identities ought to lead in a trail to an original name so nobody can ever play games in regard to being someone else.
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‘shoe, I feel relieved for both of us.
I don’t agree with you that every identity should be linked to a name but that’s by the by. Certainly I am linked to a name, and with you to an actual voice and email address. With Mike to an actual voice and face.
What I wanted to reply to was when you wrote “Gez, if this really is Voice who we have known here previously, then I regret to think that very much, that is frightening. Appearance is however that two or three people are ‘Voice’. I am anxious about that. The persona is inconsistent. ”
Because of this I wanted to address the facts about whether or not I am Sea Mendez. The bald facts are that it is an invention of Helvi and gerard for their own purposes. Purposes that I think are aimed at bullying and silencing both myself and Sea Mendez by introducing fear and doubt. Since you expressed both fear and doubt, I wanted to express once again my disgust at this tactic, and to reassure you. I don’t like anyone to be anxious and I certainly don’t want to be part of making you feel anxious even though I feel like a bystander to a certain extent in this case.
As regards taking sides, it seems to me that gerard is trumpeting here and on another piece of his that you have taken his. You haven’t corrected that impression on his other article.
It’s a weird situation when someone makes up lies about you. Has anyone ever done it to you? Then someone comes along and says they can’t be sure they are lies, and they don’t want to take sides. You don’t want to blame that person, so feel at a bit of a loss. As I said, if anyone’s ever done it to you, you’d understand.
I look at the comments above, and I see Carisbrooke making a very silly Liberal vs Labor comment rather than sticking to the topic. “Little willy” – how silly. On a par with constant references to budgie smugglers. Denigrating individuals based on their Party affiliations isn’t exactly something he invented on this blog, and he’s obviously interpreted gerard’s article as doing this about Morrison and done a tit for tat. All nonsense in my opinion.
But then I see gerard reply by changing to topic to some nasty personal remarks about Carisbrooke, and later Sea Mendez and myself, then accusing others of changing the topic and of making nasty personal remarks. Then he actually admits to having threatened to sue me! To me it’s as plain as the nose on your face who’s the bully here which is why I’m flabbergasted that you would believe his lies about me, or even consider believing them. If you follow the link I gave to the PA above, no-one else here thinks I am Sea Mendez. They are probably writing it off as a mistake on the part of Helvi and gerard. I think it’s a an outright lie.
If you say you don’t know whether I am Sea Mendez, you are effectively accusing me of lying. Because I’ve told you I’m not. You’re also accusing Carisbrooke of lying, because he’s written elsewhere that he was talking to me when Sea Mendez was posting here. But perhaps you missed that.
I don’t think that was your intention. I think you’ve been sucked in. Not out of dumbness but out of kindness.
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Furthermore, he says he thinks I left the PA before because of their horrid threat. I think that mentioning it again is an attempt at intimidating me. Suck eggs, gerard.
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You have a number of wrong ends of a stick with me, Voice, documented in the context of this lengthy description of your virtue and argument with Gez.
One of those is introducing fervent admiration of sea mendez including reference to sm as ‘he’. Naturally I wonder how you know that sm is a male.
The complexity of your view of Jules’ comments or whether perhaps you present yourself as hand-in-hand depending on what your game plan is or in opposition is a curiosity. Jules is pretty well consistent in what he presents at the bar. I have never known Jules to persistently talk gobbledy-gook at cross-purposes to any post or article as you have recently been doing.
Your grounds for reporting out-and-out admiration for sm are even more disturbing than the persistence of your attachment to presenting argument.
sea mendez whomsoever that might be has reported graphically imagining or…elsewhere in comment…intending to commit murder given the opportunity.
More than one incidence of it is cause for great concern, not admiration.
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End 1. I have some admiration for Sea Mendez but (sorry SM) it isn’t fervent. It’s based on his arguing issues by facts, being honest, and having the integrity to admit he’s wrong sometimes. Yes, I hadn’t read that dream sequence comment when I wrote my own, but on the balance I’m going to stick by my opinion. Frankly, I think he was foolish to post that. It’s easily misrepresented, as I think gerard did. But I can see how you might think it was sinister. That I don’t is based on having read his comments for years over at the Drum. He just doesn’t have a track record of being creepy. But I can certainly see how you might think he was, given that he’s only just come to your attention.
End 2. I know SM is a male because he said so. He’s been posting over at the Drum for years. Nothing tricky there.
End 3. I’m not sure what you mean about talking gobbledygook at cross-purposes, but I expect it’s probably me lampooning gerard about the “Voice is Sea Mendez” thing. I haven’t been toning down my scorn to impress anyone watching from the wings. Frankly, if I thought it was a genuine mistake I’d be far less scornful. But I just don’t believe that. Both he and his wife have a very long track record of using that accusation to hurt and bewilder others.
Otherwise it’s hard for me to guess what it is you mean but I’ll be happy to explain. To a certain extent. I don’t like misunderstandings which is why I’m making an honest attempt to clean up this one. However, if you’re committed to believing I’m the villain here, I’m not going to argue the point endlessly.
End 4. I think if you re-read you’ll find it’s gerard claiming virtue. I only claim virtue with respect to the lies he’s spreading about me being untrue, and with being unhappy if you’re anxious about them. As I said before, if anyone had ever spread lies about you, you’d understand. It’s not really claiming virtue to say the lies aren’t true; it’s just reclaiming the right to be treated without fear and suspicion and given the benefit of the doubt like everybody else.
End 5. I’m not sure what your point about Julian is, but he already knows I think the whole left-right thing is a load of tripe. I’m certainly not dumping him in it. I only brought it up because (somewhere way up there) you said something about the left-right thing.
You know, at the time I left the PA, atomou and Julian did likewise. Both atomou and I had been the target of some very nasty personal abuse from gerard and his wife, and they dragged others into it at a time when those people were experiencing problems and shouldn’t have been used in that way. It wasn’t pretty.
Bottom line – I hope you don’t feel bad about me. I don’t want you to, but it’s up to you. I do ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Put yourself in my shoes if you’ve never been there before.
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Bottomer line (Just back from mowing the nature strip, I am on a long narrow corner block and the side nature strip is nearly 3 metres wide. Bother.) You might have noticed that when Sea Mendez started here, he mentioned his cardiologist. Since he’s a married man around about 40 (as far as I know; he could be a teenage schoolgirl pretending to be a middle-age male 🙂 ) I wondered how recently he had acquired a cardiologist. I didn’t want to pry and he’ll probably chime in here and say it’s some routine insurance check requirement or something and make me sound like a twit, but it did occur to me as an explanation for why he’s sounding so introspective. On the other hand, he’s already said on the Drum he’s a bit of an introspective type. If I ever meet him, I’ll tell you if the rest of what he’s said about himself is true. If he gives me permission to do so.
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Is this why you have returned? To rake over coals, stir in them and engage more and more people in it as you go, Voice.
Voice, if that is who you are…it is not unknown for an identity to have been hacked into including in more than one circumstance someone ending with words put into their mouth alongside their avatar. Your interpretation of my concern about who you are is surprising for an IT professional, that it is so simplistic.
So I remain uneasy whether this is the persona ‘Voice’ I once knew. That latter statement of mine, of course, is a tactic. You are likely whoever you are to protest it.
Now you have demonstrated an obsessional viewpoint. As you did most recently when Gez posted articles written by someone entirely else…and that he clearly credited. You wanted to know what I meant by gobbledy gook (as follows). Your goading made the environment entirely unpleasant and time-wasting for a reader result of the amount of gobbledy-gook (material at entire odds with the presentation) added there including that you posted rising to support sea mendez who was similarly irrelevant and all over the place. Believe it before you tell me your deep intellectual reasoning for supporting and adding to gobbledy gook, I truly know where you pulled the repeated and irrelevant references from re “the Italians”.
A casual reader might not but your intention was not to clarify in regard to the posted article, that is for sure.
Every time Gez attempted in reply to discuss what was posted, your behaviour was cruel… although certainly malicious intention employs repetitive lampooning in its arsenal…and deluded people imagine their private joke translates beyond the prison wall their delusion creates for them. More frequently, truth is, the delusion is visible and its cruelty real like a protruding fat nose on a face that is very flat.
You hope I think well of you? I did not think well of that behaviour.
Further, I will never think well of your logic in regard to people being free to change their identity. It is insolent towards others’ mental health. It is not easy to trace one identity to the next. I fear you enjoy that mischief.
If deceiving others was something you had never entertained, if the practice of it was not allowed online, the ongoing problem of mistrust I feel at a very most basic level would certainly never arise…but that is only one issue that arouses anxiety in me and mistrust of your motivation here. Mistrust would be so much easier to shed if nobody ever breached the trust given them as result of eg holding administrator’s rights. You do hold administrator’s right, do you? You referred somewhere to changing the PA time clock eg?
Do you hold that privilege and have you ever abused that privilege and hacked into anybody’s identity to put words in their mouth?
My concern about your ‘stuff’ here Voice goes a lot deeper than mistrust. After reading what you achieved apparently hand-in-glove with sea mendez result of Gez posting a series of articles about refugees, I feel fear.
Not only of what your potential is. I am frightened of sea mendez and for sea mendez (whoever that is) as now direct result of having experienced the loss of friends and family through murders committed by psychotic individuals whose behaviour no-one looked at and saw for what it was or attempted to assist.
I am frightened in any environment that allows the appearance of threats of murder, variable identities, and/or ongoing bullying. I am frightened you bring argument back here that was generated somewhere else and as well speak in self justificatory tones… including as if you are educating me to understand you are justified and these postings are acts of heroism or admirable!?
I saw in an environment somewhere online reference to some people not being hardy regards material being posted (people of my ilk). For many years I worked in domestic violence as a volunteer and achieved qualification in it. Similarly it is known I have been in and out of courts, tribunals and government offices as an advocate and represented ordinary people’s rights to peace at home. A local bar ought to be a peaceful place, not be turned into a place of acts of worship of skulduggery.
Christina Binning Wilson.
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Shoe,
Thank you. Bullying exists by others saying nothing. You have shown your mettle and courage.
Within a week of Voice/VoR etc returning to the P/A after an absence of two years, a post appeared mentioning and slighting ‘the woman of Bowral’ of course warmly and immediately supported by Sea Mendez. it was the beginning of ever increasing sneering and personal comments about us. Issues of articles were rarely touched upon, just relentless attacks. That is just on the Pigs Arms but go to other blogs including The Drum; Voice and Sea-mendez in tow appear within the shortest time possible , again the relentless Gerard this and Gerard that, interspersed with mentioning and denigrating my wife.
It does affect us and I fear it will not stop unless others also condemn the bullying and the denigrating. Her concern about identity is just sand in our eyes. Voice’s identity and real name is on public record by one article she wrote for the ABC Drum.
We are getting ill with all this and just wish it would stop.
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Now back from the supermarket. Boring chore day.
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Certainly not here to rake over old coals shoe – but am not going to shy away from answering lies when they get put up.
I returned here because atomou had asked to me put up a couple of articles for him and I stuck around to see what was going on. Raking up the old coals and silencing dissent is, I’m afraid, what these ludicrous accusations by gerard are about.
And gerard is correct that there WAS an outbreak of bad feeling soon after I arrived. Atomou made a comment gerard didn’t like, gerard personally abused atomou, made a couple of disparaging remarks about Greeks (atomou is Greek/AUstralian) , and used his privileges here to put up an article abusing atomou. The article was subsequently deleted. Not by me. No apology or admission was ever forthcoming.
As to whether I am who I say I am – email me if you still have the address.
I haven’t put up any logic about people being free to change their identity – merely my opinion that there’s nothing necessarily wrong with it. Your host here (MJ) would have to be a contender for the Guinness Book of Records in this respect; Julian would have to come a close second.
I did once put words into atomou’s mouth as a silly joke and forgot to change back my pseudo until a couple of comments later – he became quite irate. I outed myself later when I realised and apologised profusely. It was not at all maliciously meant and the apology was unreservedly accepted. We’re friends and already were, so it was silly but no feelings were hurt. The original comment was part of a silly game between ourselves, not a misrepresentation of him.
Basically – don’t let them make you anxious. All I can suggest is emailing me. OR – ask Sea Mendez and Mike if they’ll meet with each other.
As far as I know Sea Mendez isn’t creepy as that post sounded. I’ve noticed his posts on and off for years (particular when he’s lampooning gerard) and he hasn’t sounded creepy before. But that is a good reason NOT to post your name on a website because there ARE weirdos out there. The ABC warns people of this and strongly recommends that everyone uses a pseudo. It is a very deep breach of trust to print someone’s name together with their pseudo without express permission, as gerard and his wife have done to me on this blog.
What SM lampoons gerard FOR, by the way, is often race-based abuse, completely ridiculous country comparisons, and the like. If you’re going to make abusive comments, someone’s going to call you on it. Turning around and claiming to have been abused in turn is dishonest and contemptible.
It IS courageous to print your name but NOT a good idea. I urge caution. But not anxiety – that’s harmful.
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Seriously, ‘shoe, it’s my judgement there’s nothing to feel anxious about. But I can’t promise. I certainly hope I haven’t added to anxiety by urging caution about your name. It might make you feel stronger to put it out there, and that’s a good thing. On this blog where you can easily email Mike, it’s not an irrevocable decision in any case.
I’ve suffered from anxiety myself from time to time; it’s unpleasant to say the least, particularly when it’s physical.
Seriously, if you want to, email me. I won’t email you because I’ve made the invitation already. I would count it poor manners to follow up if you didn’t take me up on the offer. I won’t make it again either because I haven’t any wish to make you feel harassed. But it’s all I can think of, apart from asking SM and Mike to meet. I think they both live the same side of Sydney. It’s probably a dumb idea anyway.
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No, it is not about identities. You are a master at writing pieces to hurt and unhinge others. Don’t give us bullshit about whether you are Voice ,VoR, John, Sea mendez, Act rationally, Post modernism and a host of others, DNHF. Southern Cross tattoo. It is about your relentless need to cause hurt to others.
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seamendez;Slowly, painstakingly, I pryed each finger from its hold. One finger was left holding. I laughed and pryed it from its hold… And Lo! Gerard/Helvi/Mulga/Granny levitated. I wonder what it signifies?
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It’s so important to keep ‘shoe focussed on that line. Because if her anxiety level drops, she might start thinking about more generous interpretations of the dream sequence comment instead of the one you want her to.
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Vertauskuva…
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Slowly, painstakingly, I pryed each finger from its hold. One finger was left holding. I laughed and pryed it from its hold… And Lo! Gerard/Helvi/Mulga/Granny levitated. I wonder what it signifies
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Voice, I am not going to email you.
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