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This is not written by me, but by a very reputable Newspaper. “the New Yorker”. It still paints a rather grim picture about Greece…. Take what you believe and dump the rest.
by James Surowiecki July 11, 2011

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Greece is a fairly small country, but for the past year it has been causing an awfully big uproar. Burdened by a pile of government debt that could force it into default (and the European banking system into a meltdown), Greece has had to adopt ever more stringent austerity plans in order to secure a bailout from the European Union. Explanations of how Greece got in this mess typically focus on profligate public spending. But its fiscal woes are also due to a simple fact: tax evasion is the national pastime.
According to a remarkable presentation that a member of Greece’s central bank gave last fall, the gap between what Greek taxpayers owed last year and what they paid was about a third of total tax revenue, roughly the size of the country’s budget deficit. The “shadow economy”—business that’s legal but off the books—is larger in Greece than in almost any other European country, accounting for an estimated 27.5 per cent of its G.D.P. (In the United States, by contrast, that number is closer to nine per cent.) And the culture of evasion has negative consequences beyond the current crisis. It means that the revenue burden falls too heavily on honest taxpayers. It makes the system unduly regressive, since the rich cheat more. And it’s wasteful: it forces the government to spend extra money on collection (relative to G.D.P., Greece spends four times as much collecting income taxes as the U.S. does), even as evaders are devoting plenty of time and energy to hiding their income.
Greece, it seems, has struggled with the first rule of a healthy tax system: enforce the law. People are more likely to be honest if they feel there’s a reasonable chance that dishonesty will be detected and punished. But Greek tax officials were notoriously easy to bribe with a fakelaki (small envelope) of cash. There was little political pressure for tougher enforcement. On the contrary: a recent study showed that enforcement of the tax laws loosened in the months leading up to elections, because incumbents didn’t want to annoy voters and contributors. Even when the system did track down evaders, it was next to impossible to get them to pay up, because the tax courts typically took seven to ten years to resolve a case. As of last February, they had a backlog of three hundred thousand cases.
It isn’t just a matter of lax enforcement, though. Greek citizens also have what social scientists call very low “tax morale.” In most developed countries, tax-compliance rates are much higher than a calculation of risks would imply. We don’t pay our taxes just because we’re afraid of getting caught; we also feel a responsibility to contribute to the common good. But that sense of responsibility comes with conditions. We’re generally what the Swiss behavioral economist Benno Torgler calls “social taxpayers”: we’ll chip in as long as we have faith that our fellow-citizens are doing the same, and that our government is basically legitimate. Countries where people feel that they have some say in how the state acts, and where there are high levels of trust, tend to have high rates of tax compliance. That may be why Americans, despite being virulently anti-tax in their rhetoric, are notably compliant taxpayers.
Greeks, by contrast, see fraud and corruption as ubiquitous in business, in the tax system, and even in sports. And they’re right to: Transparency International recently put Greece in a three-way tie, with Bulgaria and Romania, as the most corrupt country in Europe. Greece’s parliamentary democracy was established fairly recently, and is of shaky legitimacy: it’s seen as a vehicle for special interests, and dedicated mainly to its own preservation. The tax system had long confirmed this view, since it was riddled with loopholes and exemptions: not only doctors but also singers and athletes were given favorable rates, while shipping tycoons paid no income tax at all, and members of other professions were legally allowed to underreport their income. Inevitably, if a hefty chunk of the population is cheating on its taxes, people who don’t (or can’t, because of the way their income is reported) feel that they’re being abused.
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki#ixzz1e3BrefzF
The popular view of Greece is similar to that of Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. That they are basically lazy and wasteful and probably deserve the austerity measures that they are about to endure. But who fed you that information? Would the mainstream media be the primmary source? Go there and see for yourself. If you can’t go there then take my word for it. It’s a distorted view.
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Not long ago, I commented that Greece has a ratio of 1:12 unregistered immigrants or refugees and that was also seen as having a very negative impact on Greece’s economy, lowering taxation income revenue. No one gave me a standing ovation in coming to the recue of Greece then.
Even much before that one, I had suggested, as a result of watching a TV programme on cooking in a Greece of such extraordinary beauty and inclusivity of its hospitable people, that seemed to beg the question; why wasn’t everyone living in Greece?
The negative vision on Greece by the articles I put up were not my own, but the previous praise (about Greece) was. So…….?
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Gerard, please cheer up. Those comments were lovely. I’m just interpreting Ato but I think negative articles on Greece will piss him off more than anything else could. Same as flippant, baseless, repetitive written crap about Julia Gillard and Labor tend to send me through the roof for a while. I think you and Ato are in fact two of the loveliest men I have never actually met.
We have thunder and stuff happening on and off here – I can’t hang around for long and I’m not on in the evening. Have something nice to eat and drink soon.
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YOU’LL Love this one then Viv 😉
If Australia is the lucky country then –
How come Spain, Italy and Greece are getting a new Prime Minister???
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Spain was also a dictatorship for a long time. Italy changes governments all the time. Greece has been screwed. Whatever you are trying to say, I can only reply that you are living up to your new official description – a pain in the neck. Sometimes I feel like saying why don’t you go back to where you came from and cuddle your conservative boy Cameron, but I couldn’t possibly say that here!
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So…. Gez?
I didn’t think the point of writing for the pub was to fish for compliments. We write because we have something to say, either so as to inform or to entertain, or to get a bit of angst deflated. What comes after -if anything- is merely a confirmation that someone has read what you wrote.
Nor am I here, as a reader, so as to be mollycoddled about Greece, Australia or Paraguay. I approve of wisdom and prudent use of facts and say so -if I happen to come across them. I disapprove of their opposites and say so -if I happen to come across them.
What I’ve seen in many blogs is nothing more than gang bashing, the sort I used to see a great deal of it in school when I first came to Oz. It was rampant then. Someone would push a kid to the ground and a whole lot of moronic little cowards would put the boot in.
If you asked them why they did it, they’d look at you with a stupid face and say, “coz every one else is doin’ it!”
And that’s about the level of intelligence shown by many of these commenters. Many, not all. The better ones don’t bash. They try to explain. Add in their explanations, they’ll go back to Germany’s unification and their need to be helped with their new economic situation. They’ll go back to how and why these (ASEAN type) connections were made. WHo had the upper hand in the writing of the treaties. They’ll discuss the virulent cancer that emanated from Wall St and Fleet St. They’ll discuss the birth and concoction of sub prime loans and ponzi schemes, the relationship of bankers around the world, the fact that once these strangleholds are applied on a population -any population- that population will become, by necessity, corrupt. Democracy will be trashed. Morals and ethics will be trashed. But it won’t be why the whole economic edifice of the West has crumbled.
I’ll use this three-part metaphor of when Democracy can’t work:
In order to clean one’s house:
1: One doesn’t concentrate of the tiny specks of dust settled on the mantlepiece while the rest of the house is overrun by stomping elephants.
2: One cannot clean one’s house if one is using a feather duster with a single feather
and
3: One cannot clean one’s house if one is forced to use a feather duster with only a single feather.
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“Greece’s parliamentary democracy was established fairly recently, and is of shaky legitimacy: it’s seen as a vehicle for special interests, and dedicated mainly to its own preservation.”
The USA, the rest of Europe (most especially Italy!), Australia, and indeed ANY country which calls itself a democracy, should take note. Ato is quite right; it is the ‘faux-democratic’ system which has been imposed on the people of Greece which is really the cause of these problems: This is what happens when crooks use the word ‘democracy’ to actually deprive the people of it! The real root causes of Greece’s problems lie in the inequity and unfairness which results from such ‘faux-democracy’! When the people see their leaders engaging in ‘me-first’ corruption in order to gain petty financial advantages for themselves and their own special-interest groups, of course they’re going to think, “Well if that’s what our leaders are doing, why should we do any different?” The slope gets VERY slippery from there on.
If we want the very concept of Democracy (I’m using the capital D to distinguish it from faux-democracies which falsely use the word merely to undermine it!) to survive at all, then we need to properly apply it. Socialists, of all people, OUGHT to understand the necessity for individual honesty and fairness better than anyone… AND they ought to be more willing to practice it! But, of course, even in Democratic socialist countries the people need leaders who also understand this necessity and practice it if they are to even be able to do so, because otherwise they are forced to compete for economic survival against cheats with no scruples or feelings for their countrymen. Thus the legal and tax systems must be made to reflect these needs… and thus the rich must be legally compelled to pay their fair share of taxes… and punishments for corruption by officials, (even petty officials, but especially top officials) must be made severe enough, and be applied often enough, to enforce proper compliance and minimise the incidence of corruption.
We need, above all, to remember that a fish rots from the head first!
🙂
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I think I’m gonna regret butting in here, so let me just say that I am going to bus-in and bus-out.
T2 your simplistic view of economics is understandable. Tax the rich; share out the money and spend as much as you can on people who don’t have it. OK?
There are fine nuances at play there is macroeconomics v microeconomics at play too.
Now if’n I give youse a very obtuse example, you will realize that it is an example, won’t you? I get fed up with being taken literally all the time.
It is completely absurd to propose that wea are all equal. We never will be. *There are artists and artisans; mathematicians and gymnasts; brilliant scientists and dimwits; religious bigots and religious tragics. And running through this kaleidoscope , this fabric, this mosaic is a human trying to instil order, where there was none. Art least none till violent leaders came along to control people. Then of course they realised that inventing an invisible god; and being able to pass on his orders, would be the ultimate control. No-one could dispute it.
I’m getting off the subject now. I was just trying to show how mixed up we are!
Now if a rich person gets more money: however they get it: by any of the above examples*, they will spend it somewhere. Gerrit. So it’s all in the system any ways.
SO, if’n you see someone driving a $250,000.00 BMW, it means that minerals have been used labour has been used, families have eaten and brylcream has been bought. The families of the advertising agents have been fed–and those communities.
It’s a dog eat dog world—-and it is never as simple as it seems.
In Greece’s case the moderating was too lax and because they don’t have much revenue (from exports) they used borrowed money. money that was not producing anything.
It’s going to be a fact of life that some people are productive and will become wealthy and some people will not!
It is folly to think that one can fix it by just taxing the rich more. In fact the money then goes to civil servants, instead of being spent in the community.
Why didn’t people want a share of Clive Palmer’s debts, when he was struggling? They all went down the pub and got drunk.
NOW, don’t take that literally, however do you get my point.
That is why I said to gerard, once, in one of his blogs, at what stage do you want to share out wealthy people’s money?
I’m guessing, that it’s after they’ve made it not before??
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Vectis Lad, I’m well aware of the differences between human beings; and I’m not saying we’re all equal… or that everyone should have an equal share of the national wealth…
Yet look what happens when we allow corporations to grow so wealthy that they can literally dictate the terms on which they operate to governments: we have countries raped of resources and totally despoiled without hope of reparations, eg. Nigeria and other oil-bearing countries; we have countries such as Iraq invaded with millions of dead for their resources… and to do what? To continue burning fossil fuels at an increasingly stupid rate, solely for the sake of putting money in the pockets of shareholders, regardless of what this IS doing to the environment…
Your argument is the one that has been used for centuries to justify levels of inequality which are really unsustainable in the long-term… but short-term profit-seekers really aren’t very good at long-term planning… and do everything they can to undermine any real long-term planning when they see their hoards of wealth threatened… and most of their wealth is NOT spent, and so is not really doing the broader economy any good at all really. ‘Trickle-down’ economics simply doesn’t work!
Have you seen the wonderful movie, “Marie Antoinette” starring Kirsten Dunst? I’d recommend that you watch it if you haven’t already… in a very subtle manner it makes it very clear what happens when too much wealth is concentrated in the hands (or bank accounts) of too few individuals…
You call my view of economics ‘naive’ and ‘impractical’, yet this is only so if you fail to take the long-term outcomes of your view of economics into account…
As I’ve stated, I’m not asking for ‘equality’; just a little bit more ‘equity’ and some kind of ‘fairness’… Is that really too much to ask for? BTW, I’m not the only one asking for it; what do you think the whole ‘Occupy’ movement is all about? Or the ‘Arab Spring’?The ‘Occupy’ movement is asking politely for what the ‘Arab Spring’ seeks to take by force; which is the same thing that the French Revolution took by force…
The more sensible and patriotic of the wealthiest Americans are just beginning to cotton on to this idea now, and that is why they are actually asking to be taxed more! They are doing so out of pragmatism, as much as patriotism… they know damn well that if they don’t start to give a little more help to the US economy voluntarily, that sooner or later it will be taken from them by force… Sounds like a much better plan to me than waiting for the inevitable revolution and another reign of terror!
If we live in a ‘dog-eat-dog’ world it is only because greed and blind stupidity make it so! It IS possible to change things… or, at least, I HOPE it is; and preferably without another French Revolution-style reign of terror… for all our sakes… otherwise I don’t hold out any hope whatsoever for the survival of our species much past the end of this century…
🙂
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BTW, who’s Clive Palmer?
😉
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Iraq, wasn’t invaded for the oil.
Fossil fuel, wasn’t originally perceived as likely, to, ‘be burnt at an increasingly stupid rate”. It was discovered only 150 years ago or so. And we were fairly ignorant of it the implications then… Otherwise we may have stayed with tallow. imagine a Ferrari on Tallow 😉
The Arab Spring is people seeking a vote.
The occupy ?..Well you’d have to ask them? I’ve never seen a literate response. They should have wash & get their hair cut, in my view.
Greed and blindness, don’t make us live in a dog-eat-dog world. God does.
It’s the Yin & the Yang mate.
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Clive Forefinger is a mine owner.
Another one that Viv & gerard keep mentioning is Forrest. I don’t know much about him, because he’s from WA. But I think that he is another mine owner/employer.
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Iraq WAS invaded for oil… the ‘reasons’ you choose to believe, ie. those given by GW et al, were merely pretexts; it is either naive or disingenuous to believe otherwise.
We may not have know the implications of using fossil fuels 150 years ago, but that’s no excuse for today’s profligate use of them… or the manner in which the neo-Cons would like to force the world to go on using them long after their use-by date is up!
The ‘Arab Spring’ are seeking a vote because that’s the only way they’ll be able to achieve a modicum of equity… otherwise why would they bother!
I see you view ‘Occupy’ solely in terms of the same kind of perennial stereotypes the liberals always use to vilify anyone who criticizes them…
There is no god! And the kind of greed and stupidity exhibited by the ‘leaders’ of faux-democracies are entirely human phenomena! You can’t blame tooth decay on the Tooth Fairy either!
Yin and Yang…? Well… yes, but are you sure you really understand these at all? How do they apply to the current situation in your opinion?
😐
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Well, you’ve set yourself up with easier (for me, not you ) question than I could have dreamed up.
Explain how Iraq was invaded for oil. And I will then show you how it wasn’t; who the beneficiaries are and where the money goes,
Over too you .
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Well… perhaps not solely for oil… but it is significant that the price of oil as well as all metals goes up the moment a country declares a war; so mineral profits are also a factor… as for who benefits… The neo-Cons! While the rest of the US economy was going belly-up, just take a look at what was happening to Haliburton’s profit line!
The USA has become the military-industrial complex that Roosevelt warned about!
😉
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Here in Australia we might sneer a little bit less at “cold-hearted” politicans with “no vision” who are “irrationally obsessed” with balancing the budget.
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Only to the extent that they do not resemble those corrupt leaders of countries like Greece and Italy, Voice… But when our own politicians start to put special interest groups ahead of the country as a whole, then we need to worry… AND sneer! And vilify! And PROTEST!
😉
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I’ve added quotation marks to make it more accessible.
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??? I thought I’d understood what you were getting at well enough, Voice… Are you sure you understood my response?
😉
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Actually I suspect that a lot of this stuff that’s been written about the Greek debt IS the truth; it’s just fairly selective. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with hairdressers retiring at 50 on 95% salary, or throwing a $7 billion dollar spectacular in 2004; just doing it on borrowed money. You can’t blame other EU hairdressers for being miffed.
You could safely say in hindsight that Greece had internal political/social/financial issues that made it incompatible with the Eurozone. Once it had access to EU money the people themselves had no incentive to address those issues, even though the politicians and economists must have known that it was a disaster in progress. So it became politically impossible.
You can’t blame solely the EU businesmen for looking for a place to invest, nor the EU idealists who didn’t want to look too closely, nor the Greek politicians who saw an opportunity to build Greece up. All those groups must surely have learnt a lesson in pragmatism surely. No doubt there are crooks on both sides too, both Greek and the rest of the EU, that wanted the arrangement so they could milk it.
In retrospect Greece would have been better off living within its means, although that meant a fairly low financial standard of living. In time the disparity between an Onassis and happy dancing peasants without washing machines might have brought about some internal reforms.
They will only take my washing machine from my cold dead hands. (Hopefully atomou doesn’t feel inspired by these words of infiite wisdom to facilitate that!)
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Ato Ato Ato – hang in there please. Yes, we do need to get more variety articles up at the Pub and I shall have a go at something other than food. I agree these bits on Greece are rubbish propaganda and that the matter is either more complex or the truth will not be told. I don’t believe the Greek people or the Greek government are solely responsible. Whoever lent the money just went over the top. Kisses and hugs to Ato.
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Viv, excellent point…more articles, and more responses to them to encourage the writers…I try to be a cheerleader to all…
I’m reading two very good Australian books and were contemplating saying something about them…
I was pleased that Algy took the place of missing Warrigal, hope he’ll come back soon.
Also , as we don’t have moderators here we have to be more civil to each other, civil to people whilst we ought to be able to critique the stories.
Friendly, cheeky, good-humoured bantering, but no nastiness 🙂
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I’ll have a go next week. I have a full agenda for some days (family get together and three committee meetings). I also need to be in the mood if you know what I mean.
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You’re just great at Harper valley PTAs, Viv. And Laborites are just fab at quangos and committees.
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Really VL – if only you knew what I do. Nothing to do with schools or politics or whatever you have in mind. It is a charitable health care organisation based in Melbourne with links around the whole country. We have a quarter million dollar budget which is money we raise ourselves. I am on the State and National boards and I do masses of unpaid work on a range of projects all via email and tele conference meetings. I have an award from the Governor of Victoria in recognition of my services.
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☼
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“Hang in there please,” must an utterance most oft uttered by gorgeous women.
The last time I was told that was by Joan Kirner and Carolyn Hogg, just a few months after the people of Victoria decided that the neanderthal Kennett should take over. Kennett, whose intelligence quodient couldn’t reach room temperature in Alaska; whose moral campus could reach the boundaries of a thrupence; whose vision for Victoria was a mere blur. The Victorian people decided to let him be their Premier.
They were sorry afterwards, of course, much like another, an ancient Democracy, was sorry after they decided to kill their best thinker. The Athenians of 399BC were very sorry, indeed, just like the Victorians were in Oct ’92. A shit month, a shit year.
SHE told ME that!
One of the most gracious, most intelligent, most compassionate human beings I’ve ever known. SHE had told ME to hang in there please! I won’t go into the whys and wherefores. They are deliciously personal and private and shall remain so.
Thank you, Vivie.
I shall always say as Blanche Dubois said, “whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers…”
Kisses and hugs adouble back to you, Vivie!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696
‘We’re’, never gonna solve it.
Just be happy that we all have families….And a roof.
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…and what’s more, King Charles Chevaliers and feisty Jack Russells and Kipflers growing in the vegie patch, and Cherry toms, and Dutch carrots and/or any generic type like the really big tasteless ones…(they are good for stews)…
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Yes, that’s right. Spreading sweetness and good cheer, is what we all want.
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And where is Hung One, just when we need him and his diplomacy most?
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checking his unexpunged.
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Contributing to a joint paper with his psychiatrist on the PA in return for free treatment.
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Right. Can we now have an article on tax evasion in America? Just to break the ice?
And it wasn’t the fact that the last article was confronting that bothered me. It was because it was mindless vitriol.
Does it not, at the very least, look a little sparse this article, when it omits to discuss the size of the population, the “free trade agreements” with Germany, which included things like Germany paying the Greek farmers NOT to plant anything, or manufacturers NOT to manufacture anything? Or that most of the infrastructure in Greece is built by Germans and French?
No matter how many helicopters they sent over the Greek skies, no matter how many tax evaders they catch, they will find that tax evasion, even adding corruption, will not be the cause of the planet’s financial demolition. Not the cause at all!
How is it possible that such a tiny work force can steal so much money that the whole planet spins out of financial control? Could there be something wrong with the system imposed upon this tiny work force? And now that it’s all sacked or have its earnings cut to next to nothing, now that everything has skyrocketed in price, now that businesses are shutting down by the dozen, will this so called debt be paid?
A child could give you the answer to that one!
So Democracy was about to be given a go: after a 400year occupation under the Turks, after a war, after the CIA-installed colonels, in spite of the Wall St. thugs and what do we have now? Dictatorship from Brussells!
Yeae, that’s the way to go, all right!
Simplistic, superficial rantings give me the shits, no matter who writes them and where! Superficial rantings that emanate from the epicentre of corruption, make me even angrier. We can certainly do better than that -if we need to do anything at all.
I’d rather talk about stiff necks and the misfortunes of mates than having to deal with such crap. Not my idea of what the pub is supposed to be.
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“Can we now have an article on tax evasion in America”
It all yours , Ato! 🙂 We are all eyes and ears….
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http://bcove.me/n515x3rh
Settle. There is more to life.
gerard has been doing all of the heavy lifting; writing many a story.
He’s probably just filling up space because we have been lazy. Well, not really lazy, but not contributing.
Above is a scan of a brain during female organism. I spotted it in an English tabloid. I don’t know if it will come out. That’s why I am explaining what it is!
One wonders where science, technology & health is headed.
And BTW, for what it is worth I was astounded with Abbooot’s behaviour today. There’s a long time to go yet, before Malc’s ascendency—so I was not pleased 🙂
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Thanks for the female orgasm. I knew it would be all in the head. Is that why some complain about having a headache?
I’ll play it over and over again to sooth me to sleep. Thanks for your kindness.
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Thanks VL, you took the words out of mouth, I too think that Gez has kept the stories coming…it’s hard when most of us just banter on the Dot…
Please, leave those pavers alone , no more heavy lifting for you either.. 🙂
Thanks again.
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Well,
Here another article about Greece, different and perhaps less confronting. I only put the previous one up as a kind of ‘ice breaker’. There was just so much chatter on the ‘dot’, the backwards and forwards chatting between a couple of piglets that I honestly thought that a bit of controversy would perhaps liven things up. Of course, I think it just as valid to talk about computers and neck aches as it does about Greece, no matter how big or small the problem is with computers or sore necks or indeed Greece.
I certainly did not intend to upset or over -excite anyone with an article that I gleaned from my inbox.
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Ato: I did not write the article. Everyone is free to disagree..
This from Wiki might be more realistic. Feel free to put in your version of the Greek crisis..
Greece was accepted into the Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union by the European Council on 19 June 2000, based on a number of criteria (inflation rate, budget deficit, public debt, long-term interest rates, exchange rate) using 1999 as the reference year. After an audit commissioned by the incoming New Democracy government in 2004, Eurostat revealed that the statistics for the budget deficit had been under-reported.[45]
Most of the differences in the revised budget deficit numbers were due to a temporary change of accounting practices by the new government, i.e., recording expenses when military material was ordered rather than received. However, it was the retroactive application of ESA95 methodology (applied since 2000) by Eurostat, that finally raised the reference year (1999) budget deficit to 3.38% of GDP, thus exceeding the 3% limit. This led to claims that Greece (similar claims have been made about other European countries like Italy[46]) had not actually met all five accession criteria, and the common perception that Greece entered the Eurozone through “falsified” deficit numbers. In the 2005 OECD report for Greece,[47] it was clearly stated that “the impact of new accounting rules on the fiscal figures for the years 1997 to 1999 ranged from 0.7 to 1 percentage point of GDP; this retroactive change of methodology was responsible for the revised deficit exceeding 3% in 1999, the year of [Greece’s] EMU membership qualification”. The above led the Greek minister of finance to clarify that the 1999 budget deficit was below the prescribed 3% limit when calculated with the ESA79 methodology in force at the time of Greece’s application, and thus the criteria had been met.[48]
The original accounting practice for military expenses was later restored in line with Eurostat recommendations, theoretically lowering even the ESA95-calculated 1999 Greek budget deficit to below 3% (an official Eurostat calculation is still pending for 1999).
In 2010, the Greek Government estimated its 2009 deficit would be 12.5 per cent of gross domestic product, far above 3.7 per cent predicted in April. It revised its 2008 deficit up to 7.7 per cent from 5 per cent. The European Commission in 2010 said figures from Greece were so unreliable that its budget deficit and public debt might be even higher than the government had claimed in 2009. [49][dead link]
An error very frequently made in press reports is the confusion of the discussion regarding Greece’s Eurozone entry with the controversy regarding usage of derivatives’ deals with U.S. Banks by Greece and other Eurozone countries to artificially reduce their reported budget deficits. A currency swap arranged with Goldman Sachs allowed Greece to “hide” $1 billion of debt, however, this affected deficit values after 2001 (when Greece had already been admitted into the Eurozone) and is not related to Greece’s Eurozone entry.[50]
A study by forensic accountants has found that data submitted by Greece to Eurostat had a statistical distribution indicative of manipulation.[51][52]
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There are literally dozens of articles in serious newspapers and other media, discussing the constructs of the Euro, the Euroze and the EU, if one were interested, rather than to just plonk this piece of vilifying crap as an article here.
It was bad enough as a post by an ignorant piglet. To give it the prestige of an article, I think it’s beyond the pale.
Shameful stuff, I reckon.
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Ato, don’t worry about, I never read it when it was on the Dot, and could not bother reading it now.
Someone called Sea Mendez on the Drum is always bad-mouthing Finland and Scandinavia , sometimes I reply, sometimes I just chuckle… 🙂
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Nothing to do with badmouthing Greece or any other country, H. I couldn’t give a stuff about national identities and such. I care about intelligent commentaries and correct facts. If I were inclined to write an article on the issue, then I would. I am not. But if I do see an article anywhere, I judge simply by those criteria: intelligence and correct representation of facts.
This pub had some excellent articles written by its patrons. This one posted by Gez was written by a sickening fascist yellow rag that should not be dignified by having it posted here among the other gems. If Gez had a view and could write an article on it, then fine. We could discuss it. He could even put a link to that crappy paper. But to give it this much prominence, I think diminishes all the other ones.
I have responded to it when Jules posted it as a post, not an article. I have no intentions to give it any more airing or thinking time.
Wikipedia is not a place for political and economic analyses.
Newspapers all around the world provide one with views from respected and non-respected economists. Literally there are thousands of articles on it, many of which might be posted here, if that is the “raison d’etre” of this blog, though I didn’t think it was.
I have no pride in geographical borders but in people, in hearts and in minds.
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I really didn’t think the point of this pub was to be the rely centre for moronic media. If that is the case, then please let me know so that I may ask that all my articles be removed from here.
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Ato, as this is Emmjay’s enterprice, we’ll have to leave it to his capable hands to remove it or not; I’m sure he chooses you before any chain letter.
I have not been upset by any article but have been very hurt by some people’s comments, as they have been deliberately hurtful….
Lot of the bantering here (often on the Dot) has got nothing to do with intelligence, but I have been happy/able to ignore it and/or to leave the Pigs for a few days.
I suppose it all boils down to people being able to controll themselves (or leaving it to moderators)
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Well Ato,
The article has been removed and replaced by another one. This one from The’ New Yorker’.
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This article and other shitty, racists articles, like “Our ‘Aid’ Money & Islamabad’s Islamic bus shelters” and “One in four primary school pupils are from an ethnic minority & almost a million schoolchildren do not speak English as their first language” comes with the compliments of
http://the-salfordian.com/our-aid-money-islamabads-islamic-bus-shelters/
If that is our standard, then I’m well and truly out of here!
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The first half a dozen paragraphs were so full of bullshit that it embarrasses this blog beyond tolerance.
I suggest, if we are to keep this pub somewhere within the bounds of credibility, we should remove it immediately.
It’s been doing the rounds for I don’t know how long now.
One may watch the Greek news every day and one will see who owns what and what salaries are earned by whom.
Unforgivable, really!
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I seem to have read this before Gerard… but I can’t think where…
🙂
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Me too – it was, I think, a report in a newspaper. I have no idea how much is true but I do believe that the Greeks don’t pay much in the way of taxes. It was a dictatorship when I was there and there was no luxury living going on at the time. Parts of Europe were still recovering and rebuilding from WW11.
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I think that I posted it somewhere.
It’s just one BIG union beanfeast.
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On the Dot, VL, it was too long for me to read then and too long now 🙂
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Come on, Vectis Lad! From the article itself, it’s clear to see that it’s not just the unions doing all the fiddling, but the professional classes too… and the rich and ultra rich as well!
The unions are probably just playing ‘follow the leader’ and doing what they see their bosses doing! Blame it all on the unions if you must, but doing that clearly won’t cure Greece’s problems… if it’s going to be sorted out at all, they’ll have to make the rich pay their taxes too!
It’s interesting that currently in the USA there’s a movement among the rich (the truly patriotic ones!) which is actually demanding that they be made to pay MORE tax in order to get the US economy out of the clarts… led, I presume, by Warren Buffet… I can’t help but wonder if ever Australia’s rich would ever be so patriotic…
😉
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