The Dump is:
For posting comments that don’t get up at the Drum, and for having a pleasant, mirthful or enlightening off-topic discussion.
It’s not for personal abuse of other commenters.
Please do that somewhere else if you must.
Play nicely or piss off.
However, why doesn’t a poster add a link for us to read and comment on here, much quicker. Maybe we can do a bit more bagging here, not that I speak for the moderators, yet.
NB: Being tiresome and boring, racist, sexist or just plain creepy is not playing nicely.
———-
The Pig’s Arms exists because a dozen or so years ago our other favourite playpen – the ABC’s Unleashed blogsphere started to go off. Like a sack of prawn heads in the sun. Something had to be done.
Moderation was taking forever. Comments seemed to be rejected randomly – outrageous ones appeared and reasoned ones were pinged. When they released the Drum / Unleashed ….. things actually got worse !
So many pieces from professional writers appear with no obvious merit. And the moderation has become, to put it frankly, appalling.
As a former contributor and a commenter, I was deeply disappointed at the plummeting quality from our pre-eminent media empire. And I resented so many challenging or dare I say, witty or funny posts in which we’ve invested seconds of our precious time – getting the chop.
So here, for all our benefit – is an open slather blog. Copy and paste your best rejected comments here for posterity. Does not matter whether you’re posting on the Guardian, First Dog on the Moon or wherever else.
And sprinkle pointers to the Pig’s Arms amongst your comments. Let’s try to rescue some of the old faithful.
Cheers,
Emm.
Window Dresser's Arms, Pig & Whistle 
You are right Gerard. Some people were replying under different aliases in the same thread to press the same point. I was going through the comments again in Tim Dunlop’s article and I realised that those new ones (I may be wrong with my assumption here) who joined the discussion are different from the usual right wing participants at the Drum.
They were very clever in their approach to calm the feelings of the people who expressed anger over Walmart’s injustice, to the point of almost trying to extract some kind of sympathy for the Big Business as if they are the ones who are suffering at the hands of the working class.
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Funny arguments there too : I said ‘The GFC was a failure of the free market.’ To which one replied : ‘Hi S.O. – the GFC wasn’t a failure of the “free market”, it was caused by rampant greed backed up with lack of regulation and fraud in the finance sector. It was not the system itself, but abuse of it (and lack of proper redress) that caused the problems. The Wall Street money boys have been resisting change (i.e. regulation) ever since. Plus ca change!’ Filz actually completely agreed with me unless he thinks all ‘free markets’ are or should be ‘regulated’ etc etc. I reckon some of them are a funny lot. Naturally when I got back to the article it was closed for comment.
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Likewise, I tried to reply to Aria.
Thanks for your support, Vivienne.
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The one thing that those that write under many pseudos can’t hide is the style of writing. It is a tell tale signature as solid as a real signature and difficult to achieve in the long run. Sure , they can try and throw sand into peoples eyes by changing tack, being a little more agreeable or even some praise for a particular point of view previously opposed. Another trick is the inclusion of obvious spelling mistakes ,which with self correcting computers isn’t easily achieved. Next time you read apparent agreements on a subject, reinforcing each other, look at the style of writing.
On our own blog, surely people have picked similarity of writing styles between some, purporting to be different people. A sure give away.
It has reached plague proportions on The Drum.
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The Inland Revenue suspected a Whitby fishing boat owner wasn’t paying proper wages to his deckhand and sent an agent to investigate him.
Agent: “I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them.”
Boat Owner: “Well, there’s Selwyn, my deckhand, he’s been with me for 3 years. I pay him £500 a week plus free room and board. Then there’s the mentally challenged guy. He works about 18 hours every day and does about 90% of the work around here. He makes about £10 per week, pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of cheap rum and a dozen Foster’s Lagers every Saturday night so he can cope with life. He also gets to sleep with my wife occasionally.”
Agent: “That’s the guy I want to talk to – the mentally challenged one.”
Boat Owner: “That’ll be me. What’d you want to know ? ”
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Good one hph.
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🙂
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This is a classic!!!!
Some truthful humour for the day! 🙂
No dictionary has ever been able to define the difference between “complete” and “finished.” However, in a linguistic conference, held in London England, and attended by some of the best linguists in the world, Samsundar Balgobin, a Guyanese was the clever winner.
In a semantics elimination contest held for fun among the attendees, his challenge was this: “Some say there is no difference between ‘complete’ and ‘finished.’ Please explain the difference in a way that is easy to understand.”
His response was:
When you marry the right woman, you are “complete.”
If you marry the wrong woman, you are “finished.”
And, when the right one catches you with the wrong one, you are “completely finished.”
His answer received a five minute standing ovation.
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The Drum – be the first to comment. 3 hours later and nothing is up etc etc. Yeah, it is Friday but WTF !
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Then they appeared about 5 minutes ago. They’ll probably shut for the weekend at 5:00pm.
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One can say that the routine at the ABC Drum is that between 9.30am and 4.30pm nothing is posted. When the responses finally appear, those that have been clicking backwards and forwards all day hoping to see their responses then feed in a frenzy on whatever is on offer.
More and more, the same army of diehards under many pseudos create an aura of consensus one way or the other.
It is the same on other blogs. Trolling and the use by single identities under many pseudos distort and in many cases ruin the conversation.
A pity.
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请不要逼我 – Qǐng bùyào bī wǒ
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Our word Japan comes from Mandarin. They say Jrrr-pen. Thats how it sounds to me. It means the same and is written the same as Nihon. Sun Root. Apparently it was the Chinese who named it becsuse the sun appeared to come from there.
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nee hau – Hello 🙂
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Lay ho, in Cantonese.
Jo-sun Jones Siu-Se. Good morning Miss Jones.
Kuei ho yow tcheen. He/she/they have lots of money
Mai-Gwok. America (literal Beautiful Country, but they dont mean it literally Mai just sounds like Amer)
Mai-Gwok yahn. American/Americans.
So-so nay. Crazy.
Fat-choy. Man whore.
Dont repeat these until youve heard them spoken though. You might say something you dont mean. Tone conveys meaning. Also dont repeat them cause its been a while and I might be getting them wrong.
Dui means jump or fuck depending on the tone. Sik means speak or eat depending on tone. As you can imagine punnery is a common form of humour amongst Cantonese speakers.
A lot of Chinese sneer at it as coarse but I prefer it. I suppose cause one heard it growing up in Sydney. Its sad, dont you think, that there’s a mad rush to standardise on Mandarin? I like dialects. I like diversity. I love that Malaysian Chinese can speak 3 chinese languages, Malay and English. Thats cool. Thats cosmopolitan.
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Lay sik, hmm’sik means do you or do you not speak. Dammit I forgot how to say ‘Middleland Language’
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I thought that Chinese Malay’s were more likely to speak Hokkien.
So if at Chinese New Year you wish Kong Hei Fat Choy literla translation Wish You much money I’m interested that Fat Choy means Man Whore.
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Oops. You’re right about Fat Choy. It must sound like fat choy and I’ve got confused. Like I said dont quote me. On reflection its probably ‘nay ho’ not ‘lay ho’ too. I’m not as cosmopolitan as these Malay Chinese.
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Its all about the tone I understand, A friend is learning Mandarin, And I wouldn’t quote me either outside the few phrases I know.
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Well I could be wrong on the Hokkien as well. It appears that it is one of the six Chinese languages spoken in Malaysian.
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http://www.learnchineseez.com/lessons/mandarin/
🙂
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An interesting article on the tensions generally. Draws no conclusions, the kind of article I like.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/27/japan-new-nationalism-imperialism-shinzo-abe
How about those whacky Japanese? Murosame – beautiful name. Passing Shower – beautiful meaning… On a lethal machine. Odd juxtaposition.
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🙂 🙂
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Look, I don’t care if people are one or two. Many use multiple pseudos and I am with Viv, let’s change to something else.
I can smell the rissoles which my husband is cooking right now. I will give him a little cuddle tonight. He swears by adding fresh chopped chilies and some milk with bread-crumbs to the mince. After the carrots have been cooked, he fries the mince mixture. Three minutes one side and about two on the other. He likes it still a bit red and so do I.
The Dutch carrots are a world on their own, totally different from those large ones. (In Holland they feed the large ones to the horses or use them in winter stews) They are called ‘winter-peen’ and are closer related to turnips than carrots.
He also makes a salad from cucumber (Lebanese) and vine ripened tomatoes with lovely mayonnaise made from eggs, balsamic vinegar and some cream and mustard (Dijon naturellement) . My husband is not just a devil in the kitchen. I just hope he will let me sleep tonight, my hormones are raging again, especially after all that tension caused by someone suggesting I condone bombing China or Timor.
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If the issue is twisting. Show me where I said you condone China bombing Timor. Please quote.
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Okay I’ll make it easier.
You have written countless articles and comments along the lines that other countries have a poor opinion of us and that we should care about it.
You have recently invited us to consider our hypothetical reaction to Indonesia hacking our phones.
I invite you to consider the hypothetical (exactly as you have done).
Imagine Australia threatened to shoot down planes entering disputed territory and China condemned us. Would you tell them to butt out?
I rather think you’d welcome the criticism. Don’t you?
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China would never be so rude as to get involved in disputes between neighbours. Notice how they ever so scrupulously avoid conflicts in the world. This why China took offence. It is not up to Bishop to take sides in this. That’s why it was yet another diplomatic blundering.
I really must lay the table. My husband has lit some candles and my hormones are calming down a bit. Gerard might well wish more than a cuddle! His rissoles were divine, a real turn-on. How are your conjugals going?
Please leave the subject of China and bombing to others. I am not an expert (or wish to be) on anything much.
How is the garden coming along? Have you spread the slug pellets around the Gerberas? They are really ferocious this year, they are into my Japanese wind flowers.
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Not satisfactory, gerard. The hypothetical is not about China. Its about you. Youre avoiding the subject.
I dont get it. One minute you laud foreign criticism next you laud those who (you claim) avoid it.
But moving on to address your distraction. China did get involved in our decision to host US Marines. They told us not to do it. They did get involved in a regulatory process involving mining companies in Australia. They told us not to allow a merger.
Do I need to remind you these conflicting avoiders issued a unilateral threat to shoot down planes flying over an island ostenibly occupied by Japan since 1896 (apart from an American interlude)?
I think youre quite misinformed regarding Chinese conflict avoidance. Theyve got territorial disputes running with several neighbours. They are steadfastly refusing to negotiate. Their conflict avoiding ways have led them to several military escalations including landing an armed detachment on a disputed island (with Vietnam I believe).
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There are more insane people outside than inside.
Those high walls surrounding the Mental Asylum must be there for only one reason:
To stop them from coming in.
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You need therapy.
The Do I need Therapy Test will help you determine the steps in your path to emotional wellness.
Here it is:
http://psychologytoday.tests.psychtests.com/take_test.php?idRegTest=3040
Take the test before you lose it completely.
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Hph, I think jesus and mo made your point more susinctly:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2013/11/06/anger/
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On the Drum, comments on Jonathan Green’s piece. Stuck at 90 and nothing happening for hours, it seems. What’s the bloody point.
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My husband told me that with the heat the girls might have gone for a quick swim.
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Had to take Lola to the vet. So in that interim 200 posts went up.
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Sea Mendez,
Do you punch old people in their sixties and then brag about it?
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Yeah sure. Is that innapropriate?
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In news today Australia has threatened to shoot down any planes entering the Timor Gap. The Chinese government has issued a condemnation. Prolific blogger Gerard Oosterman has described China’s actions as an embarrassing blunder…
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What on earth are you going on about? Doing a bit of twisting again? Now let me think who has similar inclinations, ah…mmm…getting personal… ah.. I’ll ask my husband.
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🙂 🙂
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Is it an embarrassing blunder to suggest someone doesn’t threaten to shoot down planes?
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Its really quiet simple, gerard. I’m reversing the situation.
Australia threatens to shoot down planes in the disputed territory. China objects. What do you say?
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Doing the twist again. Japan— China. .. uninhabited islands.. ownership is disputed…Australia gets involved, distance, 8000km.(from Sydney)
No one is threatening East Timor, Ownership is not threatened but if Paraguay or Belgium would get involved in East Timor, they would tell them to bugger off too.
Tell me SM if you have 2 apples and you add 2…oh, forget it.
My husband is doing the cooking tonight. mince patties with carrots (the Dutch ones)Mmm.
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Australia and East Timor dispute the uninhabited Timor Gap. You yourself brought up Chinas non-intervention.
Did you stop to think of the people in the planes?
The only twisting is you. You are trying to avoid the obvious point that threatening to shoot down planes is not cool. You are trying to avoid the obvious conclusion that its quiet reasonable to point out such threats are uncool.
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Both Japan and China have threatened action over disputed areas. Why did Bishop have to take the side against China. How cool is that?
The ABC poll has clearly taken the side that Bishop should have butted out.
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Oh well if a majority says it it must be right. What threats did Japan make? How do they compare to shooting down planes.
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Looks like I’ll be waiting for something sensible to appear from you SM for as long as I’ve been waiting for Jules’ risotto recipe.
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And now China is upset by a diplomatic blunder from Bishop. The Abbott team lurches from oafish blunder to belching insultingly at every steps. I think Sir Lesley Patterson was as smooth as they come compared with our present lot. Where do they come from.? Did they crawl out of the sea?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-27/china-rejects-australian-criticism-of-new-air-zone/5120920
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Please explain how that is a blunder. China is throwing its weight around and militarising disputed terroritories. In this case one that is occupied (after a fashion) by Japan. What is the appropriate non-blundering response to this mitarisation?
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To leave that problem to Japan and China. I can’t remember China involving itself about East Timor.
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Sorry you’re saying Australia shouldn’t comment on a military escalation in our broader region? Lets get this straight. China has issued restrictions on the airspace and implied a right to shoot down any plane that does not comply. That’s not a Japan v China problem. Thats an anyone with a plane problem.
This is your problem, gerard, fixate on the headline, imagine the details.
Let me check. Are you happy with China’s actions? Or do you disqualify yourself?
How about this. Many South American countries condemn the US embargo of Cuba. Blunder? Should they not stay out of it and leave it to the countries involved.
I think you’ll find that kind of blunder is commonplace.
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Don’t piss Chinese off , SM.
If they had 300 million population I would say go ahead, and even declare war (..not Australia. The USA..)
Chinse don’t have to use military power to invade other countries. If they open their borders tomorrow, we, as well as the United States, will have to spread the welcome mat for millions of boat people.
Mandarin has to be the most difficult language to learn.
Don’t piss Chinese off , SM.
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But hph – plenty of millionaire Chinese coming here all the time and buying up water front properties etc. Those asylum seekers aren’t in the running. You know what I mean, I hope
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I’m looking forward to your next comment about Australia sucking up to the US, hph.
I’m not scared off pissing off the Chinese if its warranted. Would you give them carte blanche out of fear?
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I do, Vivienne, I do ..
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The question is what we then do with money we get from them Vivienne. It doesnt just vanish. The people who sell the property usually need to invest elsewhere.
It isnt all bad news.
Also if history repeats (recall Japan also sparked asset bubbles) we’ll be buying those properties back at a discount in a few years.
Im not saying its all roses. Just saying dont panic.
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I must be too subtle for you SM – you have missed my meaning totally and utterly.
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It happens, Vivienne and I dont hold it against you.
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Perhaps there’s the resolution to the Indonesian problem, voice. Everyone calms down to present a unified face to increasing Chinese (shall we describe it diplomatically) assertiveness. The Philipines is already considering asking ths US military to return.
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sea mendez, where’s voice in here? To me it looks like you are talking to yourself or replying to Gerard.
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Voice was pondering how the Indonesian friction would resolve itself. I’m weaving two threads together.
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How peculiar !
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Not you too Vivienne.
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Keep ‘ weaving’, we are not dumb, no matter how often you say it.
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Yo Algernon. Apparently we live nearby. Kind of. I have ventured north of the Ryde Bridge on occasion. Sunday. You. Me. Ryde Eastwood Leagues Club. I’ll buy you a beer.
This isnt about you and me being social. This is about establishing I am a 30/40ish male whose first name starts with a C and last name starts with an M.
I dont want to be your friend I want to prove a point. I will consider it proved until I dont come though.
The offers there. This stupidity needs to stop.
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No, not me too SM – it just seemed peculiar.
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Thanks for the offer SM some other time maybe.
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I don’t think there necessarily will be a resolution to the whole Indonesia problem, SM. They are a neighbour so we’d like to be friends and do business with them, but on mutually acceptable terms. Things keep cropping up such as the abattoir problem, their military, their sometimes doubtful internal political stability … in any case either we or they will always be trying the swing the advantage in our own direction as circumstances fluctuate.
We got over Australia involving itself in stopping the Indonesian massacres in East Timor, so no doubt we’ll get over phone tapping.
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And that common sense is why I married you.
Have you seen gerard’s latest conspiricy theory. I offered to kill his theory cold. So he had to dig deeper. Not that I expect Algernon to want participate. Now it seems I’ll need to bring my actual wife and our medicare card along too.
I’ve tried to keep it civil but this is sheer effing stupidity. This is unhinged.
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Are you two – Voice and Sea Mendez – partners, married etc. Or is that a joke? At least it would explain that you two do think a lot alike but aren’t the same as has been suggested. (I never thought or said you were btw.)
I think the whole thread on Indonesia and now China stuff has gone completely off the rails. Time to change the subject.
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I’m reading that impication into gerards comments. Its definately not true. I did mention an actual wife.
I could well ask if you are married to Algernon, Gerard and Helvi are married using the same logic. But I wouldnt. That would be silly. And I respect you enough to argue with your individual points. Not dismiss them based on a dehumanising fantasy. I’m not levelling that last acusation at you.
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For my common-sense? That’s not what you said last night, SM.
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I’ll tell you anyway SM – I am not related to anyone here or in any relationship with them. We are all pen-pals. Some of us are obviously on similar wave lengths. Your wave frequency is different but rather scrambled.
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I’ll tell you anyway, Viv. I’ve never met or corresponded with Voice outside this forum or The Drum.
If you care to go back to the early days you’ll find we tended to disagree on the issues of the day.
She was a worthy opponent and I respected that. I also thought she was very funny. I LOLed at her most recent comment here.
So it turns out we think the same way on some issues. Big deal. It turns out we both think gerard is illogical. So what? It turns out like others who have tasted their wrath we dont share your high opinion of gerard and Helvi. Well not everyone will.
If you look hard enough you might see me challenge
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How on earth do you draw that conclusion SM. The married thingy.
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Seriously SM do you think your a poor man’s Julian or something. I’ve said many times I come here in the evenings, weekends and every other Friday. Clearly as a 30/40’s man you have plenty of time on your hands.
About time you put a contribution for us all to comment on isn’t it.Others do why don’t you!
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Yeah I think you’re right, Algernon. I’ve revised my assessment and think that he’s actually parodying me and Voice (who he still thinks is the same person). It’s actually very funny. Playing me at my own game.
I don’t want to come over all creepy, Algernon, believe me I have the world’s biggest personal space. I don’t do stuff like this. But I stand ready to prove the above facts about me at any time.
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And believe me I don’t have plenty of time. I work more than 50 hours a week commute like an idiot and ferry someone around to sport all weekend.
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Work 50 hours a week yet you can spend all day chatting here. Something like 25 posts between here and the top of the page at every hour of the day today alone. How much have you posted at the Drum in the meantime?
I don’t care if your voice (which I know your not) married to her (which I know your not) or Mrs McGillycuddy’s cat (not sure about that one).
Find time to put up a post.
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I expect to be away for a while, Sea.
So take it easy and thanks for dropping in for a while. 🙂
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P.S. Your points are made and well made. Sooo …
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Day off yesterday. Nothing at The Drum.
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Well if you’re not here and Jules isnt here (and where’s) Atomou?)… As I said all a bit same-same. I quiet enjoy discussions with Algernon and Viv when they’re not party political. But when we get the two minute Abbott Hate sessions I get a bit bored, if its not balanced by Jules’ counter-hate.
And googlehoover, where’s googlehoover?
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SM, we’re all Gordon’s children…one should never hate.
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Gordon O’Donnell, that is!
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I’m not party political nor do I get into Abbott hate sessions. I have said repeatedly that Abbott is unfit to be PM and have said that for a number of years. All of which comes from seeing him in action in his early days. Not much has changed other than employing spin doctors. My disdain for the Tories comes from a close association I’ve had for many years and no I’ve never been a member of any political party apart from being a member of the precursor to the Greens in the early ’80s
With Jules he had no idea what he was arguing about some of the time. So he’d bury his head in the sand. In the end he needs a break. Voice maybe lonely without her groom of the chamber.There are other things to discuss here apart from the politics.
And people come and go, Isn’t that the nature of a pub.
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Where is Gordon, not working night shifts again is he.
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For me, counter-hates don’t make the hates a single jot more interesting. It’s more of the same and to be fair to Julian, freaking obviously intended as such.
You’ve mention the doublethink several times, though not under that name, and this morning’s treat is some absolutely first-rate blackwhite from Algernon.
I’m returning to the 21st century, so I’ll leave you here for now.
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Get lost Voice. Its bleeding obvious that Jules didn’t know what he was arguing about often that’s why he’d use lines about before he arrived. Sorry conversations about dog walking and what variety of frangipani you have in your garden to the exclusion of everybody else is boring.
I’ve avoided engaging Voice as any debate with you becomes irrational. Enjoy your break you clearly need one.
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And Big M of course. One of natures true gentlemen. Again not wanting to weird anyone out but you’re the kind of guy I would want to have a beer with. With no expectation to report I actually exist.
Dunno who Gordon is. Looks like Ill have to Google it tonight. Im at work today and the bosses here at SPECTRE dont like it when we goof off.
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Have a look back through the archives SM. Father O’Way is a good place to start, might need to google it though.
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A further rumination.
Having committed the sin in 2009. The Labor government had 4 years to fess up and apologise. They had four years to pick up the phone.
They didn’t.
If you have the strength of your convictions rip in.
If you don’t you make yourself a part of the crime. You are joining the ranks of ‘we’re sorry we got caught’.
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Scotland’s First Minister’s plans for an Independent Scotland specify that Dr Who would still be broadcast there. He might be a retro-nationalist but he has some good priorities.
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Thank the Goddess for some common sense!
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Another day another spy story. This time during 2004 with the East Timor cabinet’s phone being hacked into. This time under Howard’s eye.
With Indonesia it is not the governmental spying that was so offensive, it was the ‘illegal’ hacking into the president’s and his wife’s mobile phones.
Abbott doesn’t get this, he is out of his depth away from his bike’s saddle or sneering at ‘illegal’ refugees.
How could Australia have sunk so low to have chosen him and Morrison to lead our country. Oh, rue the day, rue the day..
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He’s out of his depth away from opposition. Hang on that’s where he still thinks he’s there.
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Okay so the line for a week has been: it doesn’t matter who ordered it Abbott has to fix it! Now its: look who ordered it!
First not dealing with it was the lamentable sin. Now doing it in the first place is the lamentable sin.
What great ‘ethical’ factor causes us to treat this case differently? The political party.
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SM:
No! Whoever would have thunk. Tribal politics here?
For your next trick you’ll be proving fire is hot.
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What’s so hard about saying sorry.
Neither Howard nor Rudd had done any harm to our Indigenous people: Stubborn Howard did not want say sorry for country’s past sin…Rudd was a man enough to do it…
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sins
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Did you see the Keating thing the other night? I caught a few minutes. I’m a Keating fan (I handed out Labor how to vote cards in 1993) but one detail came out that scandalised me. He had dissed Curtin by claiming Australia had never had great leader.
I’ll digress for a moment. I’m happy we’ve not had great leaders. We’ve rarely needed a Washington or Lincoln. In the absence of need let great leaders leave me alone. When we needed one we got one and he was Curtin.
Back to my point. O’Brien kept pointing out the Curtin diss. Keating kept responding Hawke only said that because…
Generally Keating came across as a man who never made a mistake and never did anything wrong. And he appeared to believe himself.
The human capacity for rationalisation never ceases to amaze me. We make self serving arguments and convince ourselves they’re ethical arguments.
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Whether he says sorry or not is not relevant to my point. I want to know why you will not criticise Smith and Rudd for creating the problem with the same vigor you criticise Abbott for not fixing it instantly.
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Diplomacy…of course, being civilized, understanding that other people matter.
As Abbott and everyone is saying all nations spy , when caught saying sorry falls to the PM, to Abbott…he might end up having to say sorry to East Timor as well (Howard’s times)
Being obstinate is not a good look in the diplomatic relations between countries.
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SM – seems to be a male trait. I see it all the time. Men are all perfect !!! 🙂
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Sadly some people don’t get it. It doesn’t matter under whose watch the spying ‘scandals or whatever we call them’ occurred – the current Australian PM has to deal with it. Many Abbott lovers have said blame Rudd or Rudd should apologise etc. Pointing out that the Timor one happened under Howard sort of evens the score whether or not Drum comments blame Howard or not. Gerard, thanks for pointing his out – neither case should be treated differently. It still remains for the Australian PM to deal with it. It is ridiculous for anyone to suggest that past PMs should be dealing with Indonesia and Indonesia knows that (they don’t care) – they deal with Australia, the country. And we deal with Indonesia today, not their past Presidents or governments.
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So I’ll say it again. Labor had four years to fess up and apologise. So don’t criticise them for doing it. Fine.
Criticise them for not apologising.
Go. Have at it.
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Rubbish.
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How so? I don’t understand.
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If you didn’t understand my first comment right here you’ll never understand. We all understand that spying business is secret business. There never was anything to ‘fess up’ or apologise about. The secret stuff became public two weeks ago ! The only criticism I had is that Abbott should have dealt with this much faster than he did and I referred specifically to the attempted phone tapping of the President and his wife – that was it. You need to get all this into perspective. Abbott and SBY are supposed to be best buddies. If you believe Abbott handled the whole issue brilliantly then so be it.
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Why are there so few Julian Burnsides, Tara Mosses, Justice Kirby’s?
If there were more we would never get those brutal Abbotts, sneering Morrisons, purple prosed Pynes, anti asbestos compensation Bishops, and misogynist Brandis’
I could not believe last night 10.30 ABC interview with Pyne? What a bully!
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Dolts are in charge.
🙂
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The very proof of (our lack off) educational standards in Australia are our dismal bunch of present politicians unable to see straight and only govern by ruthlessness, brutality and insensitivity towards others. Our human right breaches towards refugees alone are proof of this.
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I posted a comment in Kevin Donnelly’s page addressing to you but directed to Dolts.:)
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Yes, I read it hph and was chuffed about it to. Keep up the good work.
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I called them dolts on the first blog about the new government. It’s all getting worse by the day.
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An appropriate title…rhymes with “adults”
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Its pathetic isn’t it and we have 2.5 years more to endure.
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I must say that although I was very nervous about Abbott, so far he’s done remarkably well with respect to the Indonesia relationship. He held his nerve in the face of Indonesian attempts to gain undue leverage from his personal political investment in their cooperation with Stop the Boats, and spoke respectfully and was even complimentary about SBY and Indonesia, in the face of Press attempts to reduce the dialogue to the level of a shit-fight.
The 24 hour news syndrome is getting some fightback – about time too.
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One of the reasons I resist pressure to write articles of my own is that I dont think, ‘I don’t know’ is a very interesting position. Its what I think about everything. But here I’ll strike forth on an I don’t know ramble.
I suspect he’s receiving advice not to cave in to Indonesian demands. I suspect the advice is to tough it out. Maybe its good advice. I don’t know.
Bob Carr said whoever signed off on the operation (probably Smith) would have weighed up the potential costs against the benefits. We don’t know what they were after. We don’t know what the concerns were.
We don’t know what intelligence efforts they’ve directed at us. We dont know what they would do if they could do.
I find it odd that so much shit is being put on Abbott because he’s not digging us out of the hole Smith dug. Please can the shit-throwers spare some for Smith? Go on just a little…
On costs and benefits I wonder if Abbott is rueing his analysis. Antagonize some Indonesians for a handful of votes at the margins in western Sydney (which didn’t come through anyway). Was it worth it?
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The thing is – who’s saying Smith dug us a hole? Reports say it was a short-term operation (I think weeks, but could be wrong) so there may have been exceptional short-term concerns. Smith’s decision might have been the right one at the time, depending on what the stakes were. You can make the right decision and still have a bad result. Furthermore, the result of this isn’t known yet.
And who’s saying Abbott’s analysis is wrong, or is about marginal western Sydney votes?
They both (SBY and Abbott) seem to be doing a bit of excessive chest-beating to me.
But short-term comments and actions by a few self-interested Indonesian politicians aren’t the litmus paper by which Abbott can be judged; any more than that disparaging remark by some Australian politician is the litmus paper by which to judge the Indonesians.
We’ll probably know how it came out in a few weeks or months.
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P.S. Although it’s obviously premature to write an interesting sensible article on this particular topic, you could have written a review of Day of the Doctor.
Don’t take that as pressure though. 🙂
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Who is the doctor here?
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“I find it odd that so much shit is being put on Abbott because he’s not digging us out of the hole Smith dug.” Huh, do you have evidence that Smith ordered this. Or perhaps you could ask the question who ordered the bugging of the East Timorese cabinet in 2004.
It is the intemperate language that Abbott used last week in the parliament that has blown this all out of proportion, Its his lack of diplomacy open for all. In Asian cultures they’ve been known to kill for lose of face which SBY did big time. Yes its true it did not happen on Abbott’s watch however he the PM and he represents the government. All the clot had to do was pick up the phone and talk to him instead he chose a different tack it blew up in his face. Talking that;s what adults do.
I’ll be interested to see how much of the co operation and trade will be lost and how soon it will return as a result of this.
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Yes, that’s right. This ain’t over yet. Does Abbott even speak Indonesian? I mean, 260 million next door, surely all those at the front of Government ought to have some skill in speaking their language.
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Or the little nuances that are so important.
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That’s a patronizing view of Indonesia, even though it might have been true in the recent past. Yudhoyono is the democratically elected leader of a country that has taken its place in the modern world. Asians aren’t the only people who have killed for loss of face but this is the 21st century. The Indonesians will certainly understand the importance of a mutually face-saving solution if the benefits of good relations between the two countries are to be realised.
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Algernon, who ordered the East Timor cabinet bugged is irrelevant to my point. And to me I’m didn’t take the 2004 decision and I’ve no interest in defending Howard’s legacy.
I also think one can’t make string moral claim and then fall back on ‘well they did it too!’. Its pragmatic party politics.
The SBY allegation is quite specific. The attemped hack occurred in 2009. So I invite the critics again to rip in. Have a go Rudd and Smith for digging the hole. I’m sorry but continued avoidance goes to the heart of your credibility. Your moral claims again look a lot like pragmatic party politics.
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No one knows, but I ‘believe’ that very little in the way of individual specific spying/bugging is authorised. It just happens. I don’t think the spy boss rings up a Minister to get the okay for every daily action. I think our spy mob got a bit carried away and new technology helped. I personally didn’t ‘approve’ Assange’s action – it is all rather similar.
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Vivienne Bob Carr, who has been in the job, doesn’t agree with you. He says Smith would have carefully considered the costs and benefits.
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I think that Bob Carr is speculating. Because I do believe that no Minister under any Australian government since Indonesia became a democracy would approve of the notion of trying to spy on the Indonesian President and his wife by their mobile phones. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t think Abbott or Bishop would have approved that or any Labor Minister. I do think that our spies just got too caught up with stuff following the Bali bombing. (Sometimes I think Bob Carr likes the sound of his own voice a bit too much.)
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SM you missed the point. An no I’m not moralising. The point wad that the spooks were caught out in East Timor as they were for SBY. It would fall to the government of the time to apologise. I hope Abbott solves this, But my point is he’s botched it and that’s what has got him into trouble. He lacks tack, and diplomacy,
Voice, Its not patronising at all. I’m not for a moment suggesting that SBY is going to kill anyone. But suggest that SBY hasn’t lost face when he clearly has shows a lack of understanding.
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Remarkably well??? You must be kidding, Voice.Every day a new disaster.
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And the man with the eleventy button hasn’t even spoken yet.
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What disaster has there been with the Indonesian relationship? A suspension of the bilateral relationship until a mutually face-saving solution can be found is hardly a disaster.
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If we had a Labor government right now, I do believe that you and all and sundry would be YELLING d i s a s t e r over and over again. Just a flesh wound hey.
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Oh God no. I can’t stand all that yelling disaster stuff. We’ve just had a Labor government for a number of years and I never felt the slightest inclination to run around yelling disaster. Except for whatever disasters actually occurred, such as the Queensland floods.
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Ah yes the Queensland floods, people did the job they were supposed to do and hold the water back against the wall as it was designed to do after nearly a metre of rain fell in 24 hours in the upper catchment. What they held back was the equivalent of two 1974 flood peaks which would have happened less than 12 hours apart. These people are unable to explain their side under threat of contempt of court and therefore jail.
Yet a commission of enquiry found that they acted appropriately and apart from possibly releasing water perhaps 20 minutes earlier did as they were expected to do. Any who reported a dishonest story, no idea how flood ops work, had a boofhead expose the state to $b’s of litigation for what political purposes.
Hears the rub, had Wivenhoe not been there the flood would have been 6-8 ,metres higher than the 1974 peak.
What happened the next time there was heavy rain, well Can do releases 11% of Brisbane’s water supply “As a precautionary measure”. What if the rains missed the catchment? Bloody idiot. Unnecessarily floods the valley instead of a controlled release and the clots think its OK.
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I hope breaking thread is acceptable because I want to hold forth on science and Adam Smith style economics as they relate to primary production.
Humans do and must eat iron ore. Fact we need it to survive. Australian iron ore makes its way into some fertilizers. Probably not a lot. Iron is fairly common.
More importantly Australian phosphorous, natural gas (source of
nitrogen), zinc, copper and potasium find their way into fertilizers. Humans eat mined products. Fact. Without mined products billions of humans would die very quickly.
I would note the burgeoning Dutch hydroponic and factory tomato industry is utterly dependant on mineral fertilizer.
So what happens to them if miners switch to agricultural production? Where do these tomato farmers source their mineral fertilizers?
How should we Australians react to Dutch farmers dependence on our minerals and our world beating mining expertise?
Shall we lord it over them? Shall we make arses of if ourselves? Without our minerals and expertise you starve, losers!
Or shall we meet them as equals? Shall we acknowledge that they have certain advantages and skills and we have ours and we cooperate and trade them for our mutual benefit?
I pause to ackowldge (if Atomou is around) that Smith’s ideal isnt always realised.
Of course I could add that Australia is also an innovative agricultural producer and has contributed enormously to production and productivity. But thats by the by. I note further that having rich soil in the Tweed Valley, flat land in the Riverina and high rainfall at Maquarie Harbour doesn’t cut it. You kind of need all the ingredients in the same place.
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If by making arses of “ourselves” you mean pathetically scouring the internet for anything at all positive about one country and juxtaposing it with something negative about another country – forget it. That job’s taken. It results in never-ending pages of tedious and risible drivel.
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Voice, I’m sure Emmjay would be happy to someone else, anyone of us here, to write an article on any subject and put it up here.
It would nice to have stories about our favourite books, movies, social issues, politics, cooking , gardening…I have a feeling that Gerard is trying to keep this blog going against all odds, but he’s practically doing it on his own. Help needed…
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He is Helvi – doing an excellent job. I applaud Gerard for his endeavours. I’m out of cooking/ recipe ideas and also have a lot of work to do and not time to ponder on an article.
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I wonder what effect it would have on the blog if gerard ended this noble and unselfish struggle and only wrote when he felt like it?
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Voice – get off our arses !
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I beg your pardon, vivienne29? I wasn’t aware I was ON your arse, but believe me, I have moved sideways very quickly indeed.
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Viv, your Seafood 2 article is there with 1726 ticks, Warrigal’s How different can Canus… and Emm’s Best Art Gallery have even more reads…
So there you are in the all time top ten at Pigs…
I don’t know if you can all see these numbers…..
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Voice. You misread what I wrote. I was answering your question. We should get off our arses. I didn’t tell you to get off your arse ! (plural, not singular)
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Helvi – I had no idea I had all those ticks. Can’t see any number. What good news. I’m famous. hehehe
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I don’t know what to say, Vivienne. What an absolutely hilarious, if cretinous, misreading. Blush and double blush.
Get of our arses indeed! Fairly soon I’ll start walking again and I do a fair bit of thinking then, so might be hit by inspiration.
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Viv, those results of how the stories fare, how many ticks they get is available on Pigs Arms Dashboard, but might be available only for the Editor (Emmjay) , and the assistant editor ,Gez….I’m not sure if Voice still does it, I mean assisting if Emm is not available.
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Oy,oy,oy. I am a proud Aussie, but.. our iron ore hasn’t done anything to us, the Joe Blows, in the same sense that the Dutch agriculture has benefitted the Dutch population. Would you like to compare their health system, aged care, guaranteed superannuation and so much more to here?
Hear the latest;
A new report says Australians are not seeing enough economic benefits from the country’s once-in-a-century mining boom.
The study commissioned by the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union found the share of industry income paid in wages has dropped, while mining company profits have surged over the past 20 years.
It also says record mining industry profits have outstripped growth in taxes and royalties.
CFMEU mining division general secretary, Andrew Vickers, says the economic benefits of the resources boom have been highly concentrated
“Australia as a country and Australians generally haven’t benefited from the mining boom, the unprecedented mining boom we’ve seen over the last ten years,” he said.
“And the alarming thing is just how well companies have done out of it. What tax they haven’t paid compared to what they sprout about themselves paying,” he said.
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Seriously, SM, who’d want to read Australian version of that?
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And that is the problem. We give it away basically. So short-sighted. Peter Reith meanwhile is doing his darndest to stuff up the best agricultural land in Victoria by CSG mining when we don’t even need the bloody crap gas.
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Holland is the best! Holland is the best! Holland is the best!
Mendez is a jingoist!
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Aussies spend too much on crass, lavish, flashy things. The resources boom has not benefitted the average Aussie.
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…on cheap Chinese imports
…resources-boom-profits flew over our heads to off-shore bank accounts.
Short end of the stick
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There are lots of sticks. We get the short end of some.
Too complex make such a definative pronouncement in such a short statement.
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testing
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Every one is out of step except our Tony.
http://www.themonthly.com.au/blog/mungo-maccallum/2013/11/25/1385333215/everyone-out-step-except-our-tony
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C’mon Mike, you have had that header up there for ages, about time you changed it or don’t you still care about your own website? [Can’t wait for the false rage]
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He’s on painting duty at the moment, Hung
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The lounge room or the Mona Lisa?
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The former
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The Mona Lisa has already been painted….
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