China Town
March 28, 2012
‘Most impressive’ is what I thought of last Monday’s ABC’s 4 Corners program on how China is transforming itself from a rural backwater into one of the world’s most formidable economies. It is estimated that it will be the world’s number one soon. How do they do it?
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/03/22/3461200.htm
Is it education or has China always been a country of forward looking people? I mean, those hidden terracotta warriors and their horses were not there just by accident. It gave us a pretty good indication of an amazingly creative culture even at 200BC. Fancy, having the modesty to bury them. In Australia all we have managed so far is to have kept Phar Lap’s heart inside a bottle of alcohol. If it wasn’t for the Danish Vikings, our Opera House would never have been built either.
It’s no mean feat to build one city of 200.000 within seven years, let alone dozens of them. I have trouble getting my car’s pink slip done within the eight week time limit, or much worse, forgetting to do my zipper up after I have used the local men’s on the stroll to Aldi’s with a shopping list firmly clutched in my hands. “Don’t forget the toilet paper”, still ringing in my ears.
Slothfulness is not in the Chinese psyche. Meetings were held whereby the farmers were told by the village elder to change their thinking. Instead of hand ploughing the land and growing pigs they must develop a mindset of ‘business’ for the future and educate the children.
The children were seen root learning very diligently. Grandparents were shown to pick the youngsters up from school. Dad had foregone the hand-ploughing altogether and was working in Shanghai earning in one week what the wife would earn in one year ploughing and fattening pigs.
It was amazing to see, that despite the poverty, many still brought a mouthwatering arrangement of foods on the table, especially heralding in the Chinese New Year. When I see footage of the overfed but undernourished poor in Australia, slurping from Coke bottles and eating packets of chips, I get feelings of cultural doom and despair.
I could also not believe the leanness of the villagers. Was it a result of hunger and hard work or was it also their diet which seemed very much based on eating many greens. Everyone seemed well dressed. I mean, very clean and there was no rubbish lying about. I always wondered on how so many hundreds of millions lived, how did they survive? How come they seem to be forever smiling and laughing?
The hacking away at the clay with a hand held hoe and the lure of earning big money didn’t prevent one husband from wanting to return to his farm. The wife refused, became stroppy and told her husband to keep earning money in the big city. The kids have to go to school, she added. There was more than a hint of marital whiplash about in that couple.
The one thing that seemed to shine through was their connection to each other and family and an indomitable will to make the best and succeed. Money making was the way to the future but so was their love of kinship and family.
Now back to those Terracotta soldiers. The facts are amazing. Current estimates are that in the three pits containing the Terracotta Army there were over eight thousand soldiers, one hundred and thirty chariots with five hundred and twenty horses and one hundred and fifty cavalry horses, the majority still buried in the pits. Then there are musicians, comedians and other non-military figures. All are life-size.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army
We are always dazzled by the art of the ancient Egyptians and the influence of the Greek civilization on our western world… but the Pyramids and Parthenon seem to be somewhat insignificant compared with the history of the Chinese. Perhaps both are almost unfathomable in how it was possible to achieve such enormous heights during that time.
I wonder what will be dug up from our times, a large intact veneered Mac Mansion with Caesar-stone bench tops and tangled heaps of zinc alume, Chocó boxes, Apple tablets, and many leaf blowers with pebble-crete lawn edgers…
Tags: 4Corners, abc., Aldi, China Town, Danish, Egypt, Opera House, Parthenon, Terracotta Warriers, Vikings Posted in Gerard Oosterman | Edit |


PPS. Hudson Godfrey, if you are watching from above, you could add a note here.
I remember that you were in Beijing four years ago during the Olympics.
Got any thoughts?
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I decided to post that clip, of the Goons, before I really had read the article. I had a cursory glance.
To offer some balance, here is an article posted today in The SMH. It is extremely relevant and goes to the heart of the country’s psyche and ethos.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/ng-urges-wife-to-flee-after-appeal-rejected-20120331-1w52h.html
There is tremendous corruption at every level. It, being the only way to get above the factory floor really.
Yes they have an ancient civilisation. Yet in truth they’ve squandered ythe opportunity, to ru anything other than a quasi feudal system, with the leaders holding metaphorical swords of Damocles over the entire population.
Corruption is endemic. And as you can see from the article – in case you were not aware – The State controls everything.
Their manners leave a lot to be desired, too. A friend of mine, has a company building buses there. He copes with the corruption and says it doesn’t really affect him. So they pick and choose, who they interfere with. His main gripe is the shoddy workmanship and the incessant clearing of throats prior to spitting every where. Walk down most streets and the walls and pavements are dripping with fresh mucus. Obviously, they don’t show that on TV.
PS.They don’t queue there either. they push and shove. Strange that
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Of course you can find fault anywhere and corruption is rife in China. My article was really a reflection on the ABC 4 corners program and not at all all an all inclusive well documented synopsis of the Chinese economic culture.
No doubt, the world is less than impressed by our treatment of refugees either, as outlined in the latest independent rapport recommending a maximum of 90 days in detention instead of the usual over one year and with still over 500 children in detention, or the state of the indigenous people, which still remains about the worst in the world.
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That’s the opinion of the committees and regularity bodies. Most people, I meet abroad, think that we’re mad to let ‘anybody’ in full stop.
Not necessarily my opinion, but that’s what I hear on the streets.
Especially in The UK. They look what It’s doing here. We’re fucked. Too many Islamists getting thousands of pounds of dole money and housing. And setting off bombs, in return That’s what the uninsulated people say.
Off for a nap. Just was reading the news – and saw your mail.
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Asty,
I thought too that to compare P.White with Homer a bit silly.
Anyway, according to Ato, as my writing could not get any lower, it would be a cinch for anyone to improve on it. I wait (with bated breath) for Voice’s and Ato’s literary masterpieces.
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Ato’s just a literary snob Gez… I wouldn’t give his critique of your writing oxygen. let alone waste energy worrying about it…
There’s a time and a place for everything… even fush’n’chups!
😉
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I wouldn’t mind a big fush’n’chups shup bag right now. I haven’t had any for almost since … we bought some asty. 🙂
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I’m sure the term “literary snob” means something, asty. People used to toss it around in the early seventies. Didn’t quite understand it then and don’t quite understand it now.
Does having an opinion about writing make one a snob? Or is it only when that opinion is different to someone else’s?
By the way, good to see you’ve found your voice, asty. Now all we’ve got to do is to help you use it intelligently but I’m not going to waste any more energy worrying about it. The “oxygen” is all yours!
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There you go again Ato. You just don’t see it, do you?
There is Asty brave enough to say he hasn’t written much because of suffering from the ‘Black dog’ and then we read:
“By the way, good to see you’ve found your voice, asty. Now all we’ve got to do is to help you use it intelligently but I’m not going to waste any more energy worrying about it. The “oxygen” is all yours!”
Surely, anyone making the slightest claim to sensitivity could see how belittling and pompous this sounds. What has been the use of Homer and Moravia in your case Ato?
Why do you do It? Is it the ouzo?
It makes my references to Australia’s world of Zinc alume, petunias and MacMansions as having come from Patrick White in one of his grumpy moods. Of course he would , with his acerbic skills have put it so much better.
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Gez, I’m not making the slightest claim to sensitivity but nor should you.
So far as I can tell, asty is an adult. Fully grown human being which -I know you feel a bit envious of such people- has spent some years in a tertiary institution and got himself a degree; so he should be able to answer for himself, black or pink dog notwithstanding. He was quite capable of making the previous remark so he must be quite capable of making the remarks following, without the need for you to patronise him. Though, patronising seems to have been his disposition towards you when he did make that remark about oxygen and time wasted.
Still, the “finding your voice” is an in-house reference. Between him and me. He understands it, knows how it came about but you don’t.
Don’t mind in the slightest talking about Herodotus or any other creature, historical or mythological with asty. I’ve enjoyed quite a bit of it a few years back through personal emails. He has a “good head” on him and discussions are fairly robust but fruitful.
I await his recovery and the resumption of those discussions.
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Ato; And in one of your oafish replies calling Helvi ‘ your tag team partner’, another result of you having spent years in a tertiary institute?
At least Hung One and I apologised but… when leaving the door open for others to follow.. it wasn’t in you was it Ato? .
In your case I am forever grateful to be an auto-didact.
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Why are you going on about Hungsie, Gez? Why are you going on about asty? Why are you going on about H?
If I called H you tag team partner, then I would have had a bloody good reason to do so. Were you to bother going back over that ground, you’d find that this is exactly how you two behaved. An insult from one of you followed by my response which was then followed by an insult from the other. One didn’t know which way to turn. Not that I minded, just found it highly amusing that’s all. It would have certainly been entertaining for the onlookers, that’s for sure.
As for the comparisons between auto-didacts and formally educated folk, it’s not in the method of education but in the mindset and there I see you need further education, auto or otherwise. We all do but yours stands out like a bloody sore thumb.
I argue with you about your views on some things, views, which I find petulantly made and with little research. And that’s my view. If you wish me to shut up and not express my views on your views, then, please, tell me and I’ll be only too happy to oblige. Not a problem at all!
Incidentally, I don’t suppose you remember any of the insults you’ve tossed against me? A whole tempest of them at one stage! But, I understand the mindset that wrought that tempest, so no, no need to apologise -since such hollow gestures are not my cuppa anyhow.
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Ato, by ‘literary snob’ I mean that sometimes it seems to this admittedly often-befuddled piglet that you sometimes appear to think that, apart from the literature of Ancient Greece, there is little of the world’s literature worth bothering about… In relation to Gez’ article, I think you are using the wrong ‘yardstick’ to measure it by; one does not critique a light magazine article the way one might critique a uni dissertation or thesis and one certainly does not compare modern literature (of any sort) with classical literature. In short,. I just think your assessment and critique of Gez’ article were unduly harsh and so I made my comments; if Gez thinks that they were intended to patronize him, then I most sincerely apologize; such was not my intention.
PS: I’d have answered this a while ago but I’ve only just installed my new keyboard…
😐
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BTW, this IS patronising, ato:
“By the way, good to see you’ve found your voice, asty. Now all we’ve got to do is to help you use it intelligently…”
In fact the second sentence is downright insulting…
😐
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I found your “Ato’s just a literary snob Gez… I wouldn’t give his critique of your writing oxygen. let alone waste energy worrying about it…” quite insulting.
And, inter multi alia, I have also found Gez’s “There is Asty brave enough to say he hasn’t written much because of suffering from the ‘Black dog’ and then we read…” also pretty insulting.
Have you taken over from H, now?
🙂
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Yes Ato… I’ve taken over from Helvi and it’s all a conspiracy!
My ‘literary snob’ remark might have been a bit rough, I suppose, but then, you were being very rough on poor old Gerard, who is, if nothing else, one of the most generous and regular contributors to this blog and who, for that fact alone, deserves a bit more respect than you tend to give him; you have a nasty habit, old chap, of bullying people with the weight of your sagacity and the authority of your professorship… even insisting ‘ah, but I’m often right’… well yes… often you are… but not always!
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I did no such thing, Gez and asty. I did not ask you to compare writers. I merely asked you to make an educated guess as to which of writers you wish to make an unprioritised list will still be read 3000 years hence. 1000, 500, 300, 200, 100, 50, even.
And no, I didn’t say your writing couldn’t get any lower (show me where I said that). I said that you have a propensity to do some bizarre comparisons: Turkey is humanitarian, nice; Oz is inhumane and nasty. China is culturally brilliant, and nice; Oz is a cultural backwater and nasty.
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Don’t be so obviously disingenuous Ato: what you are implying with your question about who we think is likely to be read in 3,000 years time is itself a comparison of what you regard as the relative value of modern, as opposed to ‘classical’ authors…
And are you so very SURE of your implied claim? It is clear that you’re implying that the Ancient Greek classics will still be read in 3,000 years’ time, and that more modern authors won’t, but this is a big presumption Ato… a BIG presumption! My money would be on ‘Probably Neither’; a good each-way bet at around 2-1 on, I’d say…
Indeed this silly comparison of yours simply reflects the inordinate value you place on your own cultural heritage whilst apparently largely ignoring anyone else’s… (understandable to some extent; it IS a very rich cultural heritage; but it’s not the ONLY rich cultural heritage!) and this is also why I think you’re a bit of a ‘literary snob’; you appear to ONLY value Ancient Greek literature… and you also apparently have a very dogmatic approach to what you evidently consider to be ‘orthodox’ translations of said classics… only Ato-approved translators/translations are allowed…
BTW, I’m not saying there was anything wrong with your critique of my work-in-progress, “Iphigenia”… indeed I was working on rewriting it, bearing in mind ALL your points of criticism, until what I referred to as your ‘diatribe’ on the orthodoxy of translations convinced me I was wasting my time and depressed me so much that I haven’t felt like writing anything much since then (true, you didn’t actually use the word ‘orthodoxy’, yet it is clear this was intended; an orthodoxy which will apparently only admit of Greeks translating or retelling Ancient Greek stories…)
🙂
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You are totally wrong about comparisons, asty, as well as about me being patronising; but we all have the right to choose which to be, right or wrong. We all have the right to choose which voice to listen to, the one which says “do not lose face under any circumstance” or that which says, “let the truth take me to whatever journey it wills.”
I’ve little or no desire to waste my time tilling over soil that rejects nourishment. At least not too often.
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Shit, how could I forget!
Here it is:
🙂
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I’m not wrong about comparisons Ato… or about you being patronising… And I wonder which one of us is really indulging a ‘do not lose face under any circumstance’ attitude; your insistence on having not made a comparison between ancient and modern works/authors when it is so clear that you have done so is a case in point.
And if you’re now going to take the piss out of the fact that I am one of very few people who still regularly uses smiliey faces (largely as a kind of ‘signature’; or at least a clue to my identity when using new pseuds), I shall refrain from doing so in future… Happy now?
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Hey Ato,
You left out the greatest of them all. Confucious. Chinese politician, teacher, editor, and social philosopher. Why?
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Sandshoe dearest, when I was lamenting the lack of new articles here, I did not want to pressure you or anyone else into writing when you might not have time or inclination to do so.
I know Emmjay is busier than I am, so I have taken onto myself rightly or wrongly to ask people to contribute here.
My intentions are ‘pure’, I always liked Warrigal’s tales and Neville’s travel stories, and wish they too would return. I’d like to hear how our Japan correspondent Lehan is faring…Variety would be nice 🙂
And Gregor too, I almost forgot you, long time no seen…
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I understand Helvi. Mostly I think people are time poor.
Vis-a-vis my yarn ‘The Castle’ I am pleased the way Episode 4 is shaping up. I look forward to reading it myself now. 🙂
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There ARE some problems with writing that conforms to a repetitive template of combining poorly thought out sneering at Australia with poorly thought through praise of other parts of the world.
One of the most obvious problems is that it’s exactly what red-neck bigots with little insight into their own culture shock and a narrow-minded upbringing do when they’re in a different country to their native one.
When selecting a literary device in which to express your concern and support for Australian people, it would seem wise to choose one that more clearly distinguishes your professed intentions from the rantings of a petulant, narrow-minded bigot.
Besides, isn’t that template getting just a little worn?
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Are you listening Ato?
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Are you, Gez?
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Voice:
Tst,tst, wagging finger!
I would take you more seriously if you wrote an article yourself instead of just criticising others.
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Write an article on a turgid writer?
Why the hell should I waste my time doing that?
I’ve studied the bastard at Uni. That was more than a human being’s total quota of unbearableness!
No way.
About Confucious: see third last item on the list.
Personally, I could mention the names of a myriad authors and still that of Pat White will be absent.
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I was talking to Voice; Write any article, not just about P. White.
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No, I don’t believe you would gerard. You’ve been stuck on this schtik for years now as far as I know, and most likely for decades. My writing another PA article isn’t going to enable progress.
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Hi Algy,
Sorry to hear you had health issues and glad you’re on the mend. I had my double shot of flu and pneumonia a few days ago. Having had pneumonia twice within a couple of years was getting too much but always enjoyed my stay in hospital. Amazing how so many health staff are having their ciggies at the edge of the hospital grounds here in Bowral. Perhaps stressful jobs?
Not a good look though for the passing walking public. Why not provide a room away from public eye? On top of that they have a Coke machine inside the emergency ward where, no doubt, some people are admitted, because of their Coke habits. In Australia we do have some strange habits regarding health. That would not be seen in Norway.
Please point out, where I am comparing.
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I noticed the health workers doing the same during my stay, thought it somewhat ironic. And I also noticed the Coke machine at emergency.
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Alge, you must be looking forward to some time off during the Easter break..
Speedy recovery and I hope the family spoils you…I’m sure they do 🙂
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Oh they don’t spoil me Helvi, though Mrs A was wonderful during it all. Yep Looking forward to recouperating over the break
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Some of us are not able to spend as much time and resources on the Pig’s Arms and writing for it as we would like I think. It’s not unlike a bar here sometimes. People get self absorbed in bars I think, verbose, jocose, morose, bellicose. It’s where some of us go with a raft of concerns on our minds when we cannot sleep.
I did not see this programme. It certainly sounds filtered. Of smog, of statistics on industrial accidents, lack of preparedness for crisis and lack of resources to manage crisis, of the images of tears and loss, of the mental stress of oppression, persecution, fear of economic instability, increasing disparity between the haves and have nots, of the curious reasons why farmers are no longer farmers including being strong armed off their land by landed gentry they do not even understand own the district’s administrative structure as result of their buying power and the list goes on as it does in every country through periods of enormous change. It is ever since I studied some population movement theses at University I no longer see any epoch of historical change in any light other than the consequences of the struggle of individuals and groups of individuals for dominance over another/others. I see the prisons and the prison farms, the muck of concentration camps, the fallacious legal arguments in rigged courts of law and the Catch-22s, the very ordinariness of human behaviour when an overlord takes hold of a committee, a state, the deceptions regardless the moral law, the meanness of spirit despite the heights of lyrical beauty of a cultural story, the fineness of embroidery, the obsession of craftsmen.
The oppression of the years of Jo Bjelke Petersen in Queensland and his henchman Russ Hinze lit the candle of revolt for youth and the not so young who struggled to be heard and were alienated from and by their families and/or friends. The experience contained the preconditions that have informed me since, and I haven’t forgotten them, primarily led me to reflect as years have passed how bonded people can become, feel, when they group in the face of oppression, how vibrant the colours are that flourish out of it, the passion that paints the pictures, fuels invention, inspires investigation, designs business, introduces innovative products, and ingenuity is the greatest driver of all. Not everybody in a population is privvy to the depth of the stories, the size of the ground won, the injustices upturned and the group has its own smile fed by a wellspring of belief in change and optimism. Outside, not every smile in a street is the one smile. Not every person in any one street anywhere is smiling. To see and imagine anything else feels to me like a denial of humanity.
An environment presented as one peopled by citizens seeking (as a collective mass by implication) to amass wealth frightens me more than anything and if I believed that and that the citizenry of China is equipped for phenomenal lifestyle change superior to that of any other country’s I can believe in happy smiling faces as a flag indicating happiness and a high happiness quotient…but I can’t. It’s simplistic propaganda similar in its broad sweep nature to the ground swell that inspired thousands to leave their safe and comfortable homes to fight for Franco because he was ‘anti-communist’ or the work of a producer vulnerable to suggestion that unless the best is filmed and the best portrayed there will be no filming at all.
Having enjoyed the article by Gez and been stimulated to think about what I think -thank you Gez for sharing your generous work – then I read the comments of the piglets about the essay. about each other, about what orter to be and what isn’t . It’s ‘a late night’ bar when all’s said and done. That’s what happens in a bar that opens 24/7. I can drop in and have a pink drink as a night cap before sunrise. Talk to myself. I’m going to drink to the Pig’s Arms. Here’s to ya.
I have been writing Episode 4 of The Castle Helvi and I have another random article to post in to the Boss coupla daze. Meanwhile Gez, my take on the way Australians are programmed to eat these days and drink fizzy pop like there’s no tomorrow is it reflects on the mental health statistics just as abuse of drugs, including prescribed pharmatceuticals does and a raft of obsessive compulsive behaviours. Mental health and seeking mental health is the number one concern for Australia. I very much applaud and admire you consistently writing about food and population habits from the useful perspective of asking questions, stimulating, driving home the issue that is chronically relegated to the specialists, but they are not solving it. They cannot without the will of the people. Thank you.
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A wonderfully insightful and thought provoking piece shoes, written excellently.
You’ve certainly elevated the atmosphere in the pub and for that, I thank you.
And it’s true, just because we can’t turn every ‘shot’ we have in our heads into an image, it doesn’t mean that that the film cannot be made. In fact, one might well say that no film ever filmed, no book ever written, no poem, no sculpture, no musical score, no painting, no building, no bridge and certainly no political system has been complete; and further, that it is these imperfections in all these creations -artistic and scientific- that make the world, not only interesting but also ticking ahead, loosely described as progress. Very loosely, so far as progress goes because progress is like a big balloon filled with water: put pressure on one spot and the balloon expands elsewhere.
I was commenting on Gez’s propensity to declaim almost everything in Oz and to clap thunderously at some aspect which pleases him in another. It’s a question of style. Unsolicited derisions about Oz while warmly praising whatever takes his fancy at the time. I saw that 4Corners program and came away from it with thoughts totally contradictory to Gez’s; but that was not my beef. One more beer and we could both change our minds about what we saw. Seeing, is in the eyes of the seer and views can be legitimately different at different times of mental fog.
All I was doing, stridently, I must admit, was to point out the stylistic flaw. After all, he wrote the article and posted it on the pub’s notice board for the attention of the public, the pub’s patrons. Either he accepts with grace the opinions meted out by the public or he doesn’t but he can’t and certainly shouldn’t think that we all think his every word drips with honey and his every thought is a revelation.
I have no problem in not reading any of his stuff, if that would make him happy, or happier than what he is now; but if he wants me to read it then he should be prepared to cop my views, as they come out of the oven in my own head.
Regarding comparisons, as a teacher, I fought them for many years. Comparisons and competitions are nothing more than the curses of simpletons. Humans, as Plato said, are the microcosms of a State. Huge in components and ingredients which are in a state of constant flux, with “good” riding the surface one minute and “evil” the next. We can learn when we see either and we can try to become better as we do but we shouldn’t think that what we see floating by is the full picture, good or bad.
Comparisons that lead to absolutes shit me.
“My son is great because he won a swimming medal.”
“Yes, but your son has just raped this little girl.”
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Gee Shoe,
That’s an article on its own. I think your response has been the most comprehensive I have ever received. Glad you enjoy the articles, giving me the encouragement to ‘get words out’. If it is not always up to scratch, well others far more qualified are free to give us their arrangements of words and ideas.
I think you all, but one, got the gist of what I wrote and understood it was more a reflection on the ABC’s 4 Corners program than a pretend scholarly PhD essay by an expert on Chinese or Australian culture. I am an expert on nothing but interested in everything.
As for the dietary habits of different populations, Asty is right, I do like my chips and mashed potatoes with gravy, but…also raw fish and my greens, all in moderation and consideration for maintaining reasonable health. Sadly, in Australia I do not see a healthy respect for good food and decent dietary habits. The worming of BigMCCas into education and sport is deplorable and should not be allowed. The estimation is that 20% of children are likely to develop diabetes 2 in adulthood.
Now for the tricky bit. Everyone is totally free to do with those pieces as they like, but don’t try and make me write differently. If you don’t like the words, don’t read them, avert your eyes and read Greek mythology or a Holden manual on 4 cylinder cars. If you disagree, fine, give your improved version but keep away from pomposity and above all, keep it friendly. As for P.White’s writing being turgid and difficult to read, perhaps some Greek mythology translation could be accused of the same. Of course, the ‘not able to put it down books’ often refer to Harold Bobbins book lovers. The more ‘difficult’ books could reflect on the intellectual tepidness of the reader more than on the difficult books.
Keep it up folks. Thank you for the opportunity.
Clapping hands. 🙂
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Gez, some times I AM a pompous ass but some times I’m fucking right!
I win!
(Claps hands loudly!)
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I believe you both read into what I wrote what you each wanted to. On one hand, it reminds me of a divorce where one partner wants to convince a mutual friend of the late couple that the attributes of their partner are resoundingly negative, confused, scrambled, you name it, the dialogue always comes back to the argument. I did not write what I did because of anything that was already said. I wasn’t addressing the argument.
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Of course, Ancient China is one of my favorite ancient cultures… but just to put things into historical perspective, around the time Qin Shihuang Ti was unifying the ‘Warring States’ into what would ultimately become China, the Egyptians had already been building pyramids for a couple of millennia…
🙂
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Damned things are falling down. 😉
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…the pyramids I mean. 🙂
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After standing for 4,000 to 5,000 years, wouldn’t you?
🙂
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Besides, they’re not so much ‘falling down’ as being torn down… to build the city of Cairo, of which the three most famous pyramids now form an outer suburb… perhaps in time all that will be left is the infinitely sprawling suburbs of Cairo and no pyramids…
and the lone and level sands swept far away…
😉
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Shelley’s ‘Ozymandias’ captured our imaginations didn’t it. I loved it when I was 16 and it was put in front of me. I wonder how many times people think on it going about their daily business.
A world without the extant pyramids seems empty but then a world without trees seems … I know (thought)
the lone and level sands… 🙂
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Obviously I didn’t make myself clear Gez.
Let me try again.
Firstly, no, I don’t believe we “owe” anything to the Greeks -as a State. We can certainly say thank you to individual writers and thinkers around the world, who might have achieved what they did, in spite of a dreadful govn’t but, thank you is what they deserve and what I don’t mind in the least giving them. If they’re alive, they’ll be appreciative. If not, then my thanks will be redundant.
By comparison, I don’t mean compare one thing in one country with the same in another. I mean, don’t go giving a pat on the back to some State and then a kick up the arse to another. States are amorphous, fluid, and always in a state of flux.
Had not the Babylonians and then the thousands of monks not copied the greek works that are still extant, we’d know nothing about them but that doesn’t meant that there wouldn’t come a Shakespeare or a Marlowe or a Goethe or a Tolstoy afterwards. Goodness knows who was before Thespis and where.
No, no need to ask for my approval, just as I don’t need to ask you for approval to express my own thinking, according to my own thinking which is according to my own thinking and it might well be diagonally opposed to your thinking which is according to your own thinking.
OK?
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.So, where is the arse kicking of Oz? You did not answer my question about the Coke slurping.
Is it just me that detects a patronizing manner in some of your replies?
O…K….?
There is a lot in that ‘OK’ of yours Ato. I am not one of your students.
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OK?
Sometimes, Gez, a cigar is just a dick by another name and a root is a rote by yet another. Patronising, me? After that lot of schmaltzy mythology above?
If you can’t work out the contradiction in your own words, Gez, then how can anyone take you seriously? Read over the damned thing!
As for your dopy comment about your forthcoming essay on the benefits of marshmallows, what can I say? That it’ll be more interesting than the wonderfully sanitised world of China above?
Of course it’s bloody patronising! Patronising and insulting. Not only the coke slurping paragraph, which, incidentally, appears again and again in your writing, in different guises, but also your final paragraph, which, as well, shows just how narrowly you view culture, history and human achievements. How do you rate the aboriginal rock paintings, for example? You know, those 40,000 year drawings on rocks and in caves that have already been found and will, hopefully be still there, along with the MacMansions and the pebble-crete lawn edgers.
Like I said, eulogise, by all means, criticise by all means but if you can’t give the full picture, the full context of your eulogy and criticism, then at least , make sure what comparisons you make are a tad logical.
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There was always more originality in Hung One and Asty, than you could ever dream about. You small minded man. Where are your articles?
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Ah, our lovely Gez with the huuuuuuuuge mind!
I never compared myself, Gez. I am I and Hungsie is Hungsie and asty is asty. Different shops for people to buy different items.
I don’t know what originality is and how it can be found in your petty little bits and pieces.
HOWEVER!
If though dost dislikest what I writest, you can quite easily… (to use your quaint phrase) “chase me away.” You’ll find me most obedient on that score – but can you inform your tag team partner that you’ve done that, please? She seems confused. Poor girl wants me to write some more.
Let us know the swing of your latest mood, will you, mate? That’d be lovely, ta muchly.
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I’m losing intrest in PA, because the only one who writes solidly is Gerard, what happened to atomou, Lehan, Sandshoe….and all the other Piglets…
We need variety !
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I’ve been extremely busy. Just catching up with a bit of a breath now.
I’ll see if I can put brain to keyboard soon.
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Sorry Helvi I’ve been busy as well as sick, I’ve done my best with the odd music piece, On top of that I only have a few hours of an evening. I’ve got one or two to write over Easter as well as some more music lists as backups.
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Hi Alge, we been busy with other stuff, been to Sydney a lot to babysit, when Daughter needs to work late…I see you sometimes on the Drum, I throw my one-liners here and there, and then forget which article it was… 🙂
Hope you feeling better, we had our flu shots for the first time…
Keep the music shows coming.
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Sorry if I haven’t contributed much lately Helvi… I haven’t felt up to writing for a long time… Black dog’s been biting my ankle… I’ll try to post something in the next week or two…
😐
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I regularly answer your one liners, Helvi but the moderators have other ideas and don’t post them. Most the last month has been one or two pieces at the Drum and little else. Even here its only been small bits from time to time
Yes much inproved, a kidney stone, increadibly painful, two stints in the local hospital, morphine to knock out the pain, 4 days off work. On top of that the painkillers made me drowsy, I’d nod off at work or at home. The stone has passed now but the medication is still working its way out, seems almost to have gone. Even a week after the all clear though I’m tired after work and work around the house is difficult. And still little twinges as the body repairs.
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Hi there asty, as gez said once, send the black dog back to the pound…easier said than done 🙂
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‘Easier said than done’… indeed, Helvi…
HI Algae! Glad to hear you’re on the mend! The ‘all clear’ is great news!
🙂
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I wish you didn’t do this, gez! Compare the best of one culture with the worst of ours.
It’s nonsensical argument. Countries comprise many different chemical pools. Some parts of them do some nice things, other parts do some bloody nasty shit. It’s the same everywhere. Stop the fucking comparisons. Tell us what you like and tell us what you don’t like but don’t try to link them as if they are things isolated from the rest of the country -foreign or this one.
Shall I shout out that look at how good the ancient Greek theatre and literature is and look how bad the aussie one is? Worse, in the above example, it would be like I said, “look how good ancient Greek literature is and look how bad our architecture is!”
By all means, tell us what’s wrong with oz and tell us what’s wonderful about China but, shit, I truly wish you didn’t do the comparison bit!
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Far out Ato!
Where is the lack of your comparison when you state; by all means tell us what is wrong about Australia and tell us what is wonderful about China? Is your ‘Ato approved’ version not comparing? Where is my bad bit about Australia? Is it the slurping of Coke and eating chips that you are upset about.?
I’ll write about the benefits of marshmallows next but will send it to you for approval and editing.
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Though he does tend to overgeneralize a little, Ato, Gez does have a point: although traditional asian cultures do have to work extremely hard, the result is that villagers are very fit… and village life with its extended family life is certainly far less alienating than city life… Furthermore, I saw it more as a city-country dichotomy; or even a traditional (read ‘country’) lifestyle as opposed to a modern (read ‘city’) lifestyle, that Gez was really talking about; the comments about some of Australia’s less salubrious forms of culture seemed to me more or less ‘en passant’,.. a mere passing reflection, rather than being his main point… which I think has more to do with the rapidity of change in China.
Even so, I must say that I think Gez does perhaps tend to over-romanticize the bucolic idyll a little for my tastes… And I like chips… now and then… Naht quaht lahk a chip buttie! And it does surprise me somewhat that any Dutchman worth his salt should protest that doesn’t like chips either; I can’t imagine for one moment such a critique was ever intended as anything but humorous…
Still, chaqu’un a son gout!
😉
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You’ve got it Asty.
I do sometimes like my chips and tend to overdo comparisons but only to accentuate the differences. They become more sharply defined and makes for more interesting reading. This is why I like your version of Greek Mythology more than most others. It had a personal edge to it and that makes the reading more enjoyable. The ‘authenticity’ of the translation or the ‘truthfulness’ of it becomes irrelevant to the reader, he or she just wants to feast upon the words. There will always be cranky experts that will quibble over the ‘worthiness’ of anything.
I still dip into your book at times, opening it randomly. I still enjoy your words.
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Far be it for me to quibble Gez but, if you looked closely at our work -asty’s and mine, you’d find that asty was talking primarily History (though, Herodotus did refer to some bizarre, myth-like incidents) and I was talking mythology. See the difference?
Now, please, tell us what you think is the difference in the meaning of the words, “myth” and “fiction;” and, apart from the hilariously obvious difference in literary talent between Homer and White, tell us how the two are doing anything different.
Tell us also who, in, say three thousand years hence, will be studied at most tertiary educational institutions, most of the time? Put them in some order, if you like:
Homer
Aristophanes
Aeschylus
Sophocles
Euripides
Shakespeare
Goethe
Tolstoy
(add your own)
Steinbeck
Patrick White.
No comparisons, just an intelligent guess will do.
I mean, around the world, say, 3000 years hence.
Reflect on that for a while because, right now, I am getting wonderful discussions happening with people from Cambodia, Estonia, Israel and Belarus and one of my translations will be staged any day now, in Anchorage, Alaska and a great many other plays I’ve translated were staged in a great many other parts of the world.
I haven’t heard of any serious discussions taking place about your beloved author. Let me know of one so that I might get a little more informed about him.
Not to put too fine an exertion on my pompousness, I suggest that, judging by the stats I’m getting on my blog, my translations have been and are constantly read by many more people than the works of White.
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Thank you for those kind words, Gez; it encourages me to dip the old goose quill into the ink-well once more…
🙂
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It is quite unfair to compare the works of say, Patrick White, with those of Homer, or even Shakespeare, Atomou, because the latter two have the overwhelming advantage of having been the first-best; a feat that later-best authors cannot even hope to compete with, as well as the historical embeddedness which this has given them.
I might add that my real (anthropological) interest lies in that point at which history and mythology merge… and I think I’ve perhaps spent so long in that twilight land that now I find it extremely difficult sometimes to say for certain on which side of the line a particular event or character stands…
Herodotus has been called, ‘The Father of History’ (and also, ‘The Father of Lies’, I might add) and as such, of course, cannot actually BE history… this is what I find so fascinating about him: he is myth striving towards history and historicity. But that concept must wait a few centuries… for it is not until the concept of ‘history’ has been around for quite a while before the concept of ‘historicity’ emerges… most probably with Roman historians like Livy and Pollio…
🙂
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Bloody hell, asty, you have made me hungry for Fish and Chips this early in the morning…
‘Our’ fish place is now run by an Asian couple, the previous owners, a Greek couple, have bought a smart coffee shop in town, and they employ people to run it.
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Know what, Helvityni? I’m even beginning to fancy fush’n’chups for tea myself now!
🙂
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That wuz me Kiwi accint…
😉
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…Helen Clarke got away with that ‘awful’ accent.. 🙂
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This week we farewelled a great nurse, who has gone to live in China to run an orphanage. She tells us that it is a small country town, a real back-water. So, what’s the population. Only a million!
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Hi Mark,
The more one reads about China, the more surprising is their speed of development. Not long ago Mao was swimming in the Yangste river and every one had a little red book, and now tens of millions are traveling buying Guggi handbags in Paris and New York.
A middle class population all hell bent on more middle class-ness. Just like us, may be?
Great nurse to go to China. Good luck to her.
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Thank you Funston, for this classic song; a song in a genre all of its very own…
🙂
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And, topical. Well relevant to the article, language wise.
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Most profound, Funston… you’re quite the philosopher today!
🙂
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Unfortunately they did not show the fat kids resulting from the one child policy. I hope their building standards are improving because a little quake not long ago did enormous damage. Anyway, I think they are basically reverting to the past, prior to Mao. They have the advantage today of taking up and improving on things developed in the ‘west’ and they are doing it with gusto. I watch a fair bit of Chinese programs and they are all very keen to make money. A capitalist country run by Communists. Hysterical really but a good way to avoid having No No No Abbotts putting a blight on the country.
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They might be improving on things developed in the ‘west’, but we have copied far more from them. Here is a list of them:
The ancient Chinese invented many things we use today, including paper, silk, matches, wheelbarrows, gunpowder, the decimal system, the waterwheel, the sundial, astronomy, porcelain china, lacquer paint, pottery wheel, fireworks, paper money, compass, tangrams, seismograph, medicines, dominoes, jump rope, kites, tea ceremony, folding umbrella, ink, calligraphy, animal harness, playing cards, printing, abacus, wallpaper, the crossbow, ice cream, and … well, you get the idea.
The ancient Chinese were very inventive! We owe them a lot!
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Gez, the notion that because someone has invented something the world “owes” him is, at best silly, at worst, downright suppression of the advancement of others.
Invention can be achieved either by intense effort and intelligence, or by sheer luck. whatever the case, it doesn’t mean that someone else would not have -could not have invented the same thing. If Atomou the Firstest hadn’t invented the wheel, I’m fairly bloody certain Atomou the second or third would have done so.
No one “owes” anything to anyone.
With States (countries) one will find that for every invention on the side of good there have been a great many inventions on the side of evil. No State is “owed” anything.
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We do owe them their astounding inventiveness Ato. Do you deny that the world owes something to the Greek culture of the past? Do you deny that Australia owes something to the fallen soldiers? I think it is a fairly common expression and used widely.
You might not believe in it, so does it then follow the rest should follow the Ato way and not give credit where it is due?
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Well they did not invent everything. Tea ceremony? wallpaper, jump rope, porcelain china, playing cards, silk, fireworks, dominoes – I don’t really care. What was the point of making and buying all soldiers and horses etc? Stump jump plough, black box, medicines, Medicare, women getting the vote – there are many Aussie inventions which Aussies don’t even realise originated here. We all contribute one way or another. I think the Arabs did a lot of good stuff.
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Indeed they did not invent everything Vivienne! It took a Yorkshireman to come up with chip butties!
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And 4 Englishmen to come up with The Four Yorkshiremen! 🙂
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