The Dump is:
For posting comments that don’t get up at the Drum, and for having a pleasant, mirthful or enlightening off-topic discussion.
It’s not for personal abuse of other commenters.
Please do that somewhere else if you must.
Play nicely or piss off.
However, why doesn’t a poster add a link for us to read and comment on here, much quicker. Maybe we can do a bit more bagging here, not that I speak for the moderators, yet.
NB: Being tiresome and boring, racist, sexist or just plain creepy is not playing nicely.
———-
The Pig’s Arms exists because a dozen or so years ago our other favourite playpen – the ABC’s Unleashed blogsphere started to go off. Like a sack of prawn heads in the sun. Something had to be done.
Moderation was taking forever. Comments seemed to be rejected randomly – outrageous ones appeared and reasoned ones were pinged. When they released the Drum / Unleashed ….. things actually got worse !
So many pieces from professional writers appear with no obvious merit. And the moderation has become, to put it frankly, appalling.
As a former contributor and a commenter, I was deeply disappointed at the plummeting quality from our pre-eminent media empire. And I resented so many challenging or dare I say, witty or funny posts in which we’ve invested seconds of our precious time – getting the chop.
So here, for all our benefit – is an open slather blog. Copy and paste your best rejected comments here for posterity. Does not matter whether you’re posting on the Guardian, First Dog on the Moon or wherever else.
And sprinkle pointers to the Pig’s Arms amongst your comments. Let’s try to rescue some of the old faithful.
Cheers,
Emm.
Window Dresser's Arms, Pig & Whistle 
Good old Boris.I hope you’re all gonna do this.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/782629f4-252f-11e3-b349-00144feab7de.html#axzz2fsJLBeLt
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A thought promoting article in new matilda about Abbott’s tenuous grip on power:
https://newmatilda.com/2013/09/24/thirty-thousand-votes-and-abbotts-gone
Thirty Thousand Votes And Abbott’s Gone
By Phil Doyle
Eleven of the Coalition’s new seats are held on a margin of less than 4000 votes. That isn’t a clean sweep, no matter how the hacks spin it, writes Phil Doyle
Whichever way you want to look at the result of the recent Federal election, one argument that doesn’t stack up is that this is some kind of landslide for the Coalition. That’s how the election is being rewritten — but the figures don’t support the story.
Fifteen of the Coalition’s new seats are held on very thin margins. Eleven seats have margins of less than 4000 voters, according to AEC figures as at 24 September:
Barton (NSW) 493
Petrie (QLD) 971
Eden-Monaro (NSW) 1071
Capricornia (QLD) 1381
Dobell (NSW) 1189
Solomon (NT) 1492
Reid (NSW) 1490
Lyons (TAS) 1605
Banks (NSW) 3169
Braddon (TAS) 3398
Hindmarsh (SA) 3541
Read on…
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Hej Carisbrooke! This is the home of the rejected Drum comment so I am compelled to express this here.
They always reject my criticism of English boarding schools. We on the continent have progressive and relaxed attitudes to sexuality. We find the rampant homosexual acts in your boarding schools weird and unnatural.
Its a problem that occupies my progressive and relaxed thoughts often. Some days I find I just can’t stop thinking about young English men having sex with each other.
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The moderator rejected this joke when I posted it to Emma Alberici’s article – The unelected lords of Westminster
—————————————
A Right Royal Rumpy-Pumpy
Camilla bought a new pair of shoes for her wedding which got increasingly tighter and tighter as the day went on.
That night after the festivities were finally over, she and Charles had retired to their room at the palace. Camilla flopped on the bed and said ‘Please remove my shoes darling, one’s feet are killing one.’
Ever obedient, the Prince of Wales attacked her right shoe with vigour ,but it would not budge. ‘Harder’ yelled Camilla. ‘Harder?’ Charles yelled back, ‘I’m trying darling! – it’s just so bloody tight!’
‘Come on give it all you’ve got ‘ she cried. Finally when it released, Charles let out a big groan, and Camilla exclaimed ‘Oh God, that feels so good.’
In their bedroom next door The Queen turned to Prince Phillip and said, ‘See, I told you she would still be a virgin with a face like that!’
Meanwhile back in the other bedroom Charles was attempting to remove the other shoe when he cried out ‘Oh god, darling this ones even tighter’
At which point Prince Phillip turned and said to the Queen: ‘That’s my boy, Once a Navy man, always a Navy man!
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Jolly good joke old chap.
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Then there is this rumour:
Prince Willy stayed at home while young Catherine went to the ball. She had fun. Then she went home. Exhausted that’s why there are all these full stops in the tale.
Anyhow, she gets home, flops onto her bed and calls her hubby.
Catherine: Willy?
Willy: Yes, sweet princess!
Catherine: Willy, please take of my shoes!
Willy: Sure, my darling!
Willy obeys.
Catherine: Willy?
Willy: Yes, my angel?
Catherine: Please take off my dress!
Willy: Done my strawberry pie.
Catherine: Now please take off my stockings!
Willy: Are you sure, sweetheart?
Catherine: Of course I’m sure!
Willy: Oh, alright then.
Catherine: Now my knickers please.
Willy: Are you sure my poppycock?
Catherine:Of course I’m sure!
Willy: Oh, alright then…
Catherine: And Willy, if I ever catch you wearing my clothes again, this marriage is over!
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Hej indeed. For some reason the hej had me in fits.
I wonder what John Bull would say about it all?
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John Bull, would probably be concerned about its “can’t stop thinking” problem.
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Well I too have noted The Drum is a little shy on matters of sexuality.
I once tried to tell you a story about my new Victa mower and why continental types don’t understand the Colourbond imperative.
The the Briggs and Stratton 150 4-stroke was on song and roaring delightfully. My British blood, uncorrupted by the deleterious effects of preserved continental foodstuffs, was surging through my veins. The Victa was mulching not catching. It produced a delightful side effect. Dry clippings were cooking on the exhaust. The aroma was delightful.
Well I found the combination of stimuli quite arousing. The kids were packed off to the neighbors and my good wife and I took full advantage of the privacy only 6 foot colorbond fencing provides.
Off course this is also why Britishers need to keep the curtains closed and can’t be trusted in situations involving public nudity, like saunas. Things would get a bit crazy
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D-N-H-F, I wonder if you might consider using your full name, not just the initials? Not everyone here visits The Drum much and anyway, this place is infested by Englanders. You can’t really expect Englanders to remember it even if they HAD read it.
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It’s Hung, the nurse.
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I just happened to be checking my mail and saw your post.
I’ve got a temporary phone at the mo.* I’m wondering whether to go for the new Apple 5s, the Nokia 1020 – or wait until Oct 25th, for the nokia1520 phablet .
I don’t like android.
So it’s slower to check mail, on the phone.
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I’m not up on this stuff at the moment. Therese might be because I recall him mentioning an iPhone a couple of times. I like CNET for reviews – that’s the best I can do, sorry.
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Androits are evil! Apples are just naughty, so get an apple. Very easy to handle.
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http://www.nokia.com/au-en/phones/phone/lumia1020/?cid=ncomprod-fw-bac-na-alwayson-na-display-au-en-1todtmx81b4ee
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The three experiences I had with androits left me traumatised for life. Still get nightmares because of them. I keep dreaming that someone has swapped my apple to an androit. Usually wake up in a pool of sweat.
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I had been going to add – if you’ve already decided you want an Apple and are looking for affirmation/confirmation ask atomou for his opinion. 🙂
P.S. Excuse me ato for not getting back about Women and Ancient Greece. And Caz for not following that link. I have to return once more unto the brink of exhaustion with sugar soaping the walls so I can get some stuff back in that room and reclaim my living space.
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Bonne chance.
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Excuses, excuses, excuses!
That’s all I ever get from women -ancient and contemporary- these days!
Must do the cleaning! Must do the washing! Must do the cooking! Must sugar soap the walls!
Yeah, RIGHT!
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Bon après-midi……………………………..
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I know, atomou, I know. Give your women an inch and they’ll walk all over you. As you said this morning they already are. Give them 6 inches … off to clean my walls and anything else that might need it.
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What? You want 6 now? Where am I ever gonna find 6 of them?
REALLY! You women! I mean, REALLY! Sooooo gluttonous!
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Bloody hell! Four of the clock already! It’s still too damned hot though and I need to get back out there for some more sweat making!
Damn!
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Article on The Drum about education benchmarking. In the intro I like the phrase ‘narrowing learning’. That’s what I’ve been trying to say all along. If you introduce a benchmark there’s an incentive to teach to the benchmark. You can hit the benchmark but you will miss out on other stuff. The kids may be able to perform arithmetic to the satisfaction of pro-business boffins at the OECD but at the expense of doing real history, like my Great War propaganda example. Benchmarks can’t easily determine kids’ ability to critique propaganda.
This is why I was alarmed about Labor’s top five PISA goal. Many of the top 5 got there on the back of conservative pedagogy and practices that are I believe are harmful to children.
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SM, I haven’t read the article on the The Drum but I agree with your observation that all that narrow benchmarks do is to concentrate the attention of schools, teachers and students towards achieving that benchmark to the detriment of all else that may be taught in school with a broadening education aim.
It has has also been quite evident that education, particularly tertiary, has been hijacked by the exponentially narrowing needs of corporations and so tertiary institutions eschew subjects that broaden the minds and the skills of the students, a broadening that would make them more valuable to a society.
Thinking, since the late 70s, so far as I can tell, does no longer include critiquing, as you’ve noted, focusing rather, more on simply specialising on some narrow ‘knowing.”
Had I my druthers, I’d insist that all students spend at least a year on Humanities, on subjects such as the Classics, Ancient Greek, Latin, Literature, Philosophy, Languages, Histories, and such like, before they move on to their career field; and if the requirements of that field will keep the students studying for that extra year or two, then so be it.
Society will then have scientists who can articulate ideas -like climate change- more easily and be more comfortable advocates of their discoveries in the court of public opinion.
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Hi atomosophy, Wasn’t it gorgeous to see Boris Johnson, recite a huge chunk of Homer. It was Homer, I suppose? You would know…………………http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2013/09/16/3847043.htm
One can’t help liking* the ebullient Johnson. Where are the Australian equivalents?
Of course his philosophies fit with my ‘Conservativeness’ 😉
PS: I do admire Annabel. She writes and thinks. Or should that be thinks and writes.
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I enjoyed seeing David Suzuki on Q&A last night, especially at the time when our Climate Change Commission is being abolished by our new government.
Clive Palmer is rather ebullient, but I don’t really know what he’s on about, I don’t think the Green girl Larissa from Queensland was too happy with him…he might just be a very rich eccentric…good for laughs, to lighten up the sometimes boring Q&A…
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Shit that was impressive by Boris! He went on and on with it. Impressive more so because he is not a native speaker and so it’d be a great deal more difficult for him. He would have had to have a brilliant grasp of the language to recite such a big chunk of it. I can do about half a dozen lines of each, the Iliad and the Odyssey but Boris would have reached half way through Book One of it! Very impressive indeed.
I couldn’t follow him because his pronunciation is based on the English way of reading the Greek and so cannot say with certainty that he was accurate but who cares? He gave such a confident recital that there was no doubt that he did it well. I’m fairly certain also that other English scholars of the text who’d be able to follow him would make the appropriate criticism soon enough.
Well done Boris.
And I also love his reasoning behind the need to study the classics, vis a vis the croc at the feet of the mangrove. Brilliant.
I generally avoid listening to the guy because he very often mumbles -people with an orange in their mouth generally do that- and so I find him an arduous audition but he was a bit better this time.
Annabel was also impressive with her research. Not an admirer of her as you are but she did well to carry a one hour interview with the man.
I like the idea of Ladies and Tradies night.
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Thanks for reading that, atomou. I thought that you would enjoy it. Especially since he was gesticulating in sympathy with the sentiment.
I loved the bit about an Aussie up a tree. I didn’t know where he was going at first, however he segued brilliantly, to hammer home this learning/education point.
Perhaps I should have posted this in the education discussion, however, as it was mainly put up for your benefit, I won’t bother now 😉
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The bottom of my heart thanks you for your generosity, Cazo.
Boris is a most entertaining interviewee and it was gratifying to see him speak about political correctness and how stultifying it can be for someone who wants to express his views honestly. The metaphor of holding onto the steering wheel too tightly was very apt.
I think his honesty makes him sort of float between Right Wing and Left on occasions and that’s what makes him interesting, as compared to dull, grumpy old Tea Partiers (like Abbott) who believe that their very DNA dictates that they must uphold the Old Testament dicta that in all things there is a hierarchy and in all hierarchy the prime objective is to suppress, to enslave and to make the lessers suffer.
His wealth did not destroy the values of virtue he gained from studying the classics; and classics are not mere literary works, mere words put together nicely, mere theatrical lines uttered well but profound investigations of the “good” of the “virtuous” and their counter dispositions of “bad” and “evil.”
They open our eyes to all possible human emotions and thoughts.
The passion with which Boris recited that wonderful passage was a good indication that he understood its significance and the context, the classical context, in which it plays a part. Nearly three thousand years ago. The learning stood him well and the crocodile in his metaphor is the horde of greedy, unlearned CEOs of the corporate world. The mangrove is the narrow mental place that this horde of brutal boors has left him to live on and the classics are his life line. A most apt exhibition of the devotion he has for the minds of the thinkers of ancient Greece and Rome. By late Rome, of course, and certainly by the time of Christianity the thinking has smothered by the new way of “believing” in bullshit dictated by desert dwelling charlatans pretending to have had a conversation with god! No more thinking or else you’d end up like Giordano Bruno or Galileo Galilei and myriads of others who met the same fate by not only the three abrahamic religions but summarily by all other religions.
I won’t go on, only to say that this is why I’ve spent most of my life studying those classics and the last fifteen years of it translating all of the plays and some of the better known poetry.
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Well, in a way, I’ve lived through some of it (too), in that my father and mother were great readers and discussers, especial Shakespeare, who channelled many of his works from those classics.
Then – ever a glutton for punishment – I married an English/dram/preforming arts/philosophy teacher.
Of course in boarding school (The UK), one was required to read and recite poetry and literature. Failure to do so, resulted in loss of privileges – such as watching the television once a fortnight, instead of twice 🙂 – or reciting verses from the bible, in front of the class. Enough to bring one down with pneumonia, glandular fever and chicken pox. At the same time!
As far as Abooot, goes, he is on probation. Let him hang himself, or be found to be shrewd. Clairvoyance can bring one undone.
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Not Claire’s nor anybody else’s voyant, Cazo. I just read the signs.
And I also know that the damage that these mongrels do in their single cycle in Govn’t can last for many generations, some also for ever. Beginning from the abandonment of the protection of the environment and releasing it to the greedy shits of huge corporations and to the shifting of the political philosophy in a country.
The Labor Party is a glowing paradigm of this shifting philosophy. Until, if ever it will, this once proud Left Wing party regains its philosophical ground, the governance of this country will suffer irreparable damage.
Allowing a greater number of women to enter their front bench (at the present moment) is quite proper but its value is absolutely smothered by this party’s treatment to single mothers who must now try and survive on unsurvivable means.
Talking about human rights as if they’ve invented them is fine, if only those human right did not get trampled lethally by the way they treated the refugees.
How did they get to this stage of depravity?
Because, like starving rats, they took the bait that the Tea Partiers tossed at them.
But, perhaps I’m reading the signs all wrong.
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And I can now see the asylum seeker issue taking on even worse dimensions, the NBN being completely fucked, nuclear plants opening up left right and centre, coal seam gas being fracked on every food bowl on the land, old tree forests demolished, unemployment and destitution burgeoning… and none of this being made public by anyone in government, except perhaps by the Greens or by some Wikileaks or GetUp type entity.
Or am I staring at the wrong entrails?
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Call me a contrarian, but a classical education from which women were almost entirely excluded, and where male anxieties and even disgust about and for women are pervasive. That places a heavy burden on society.
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There was a girl’s school down the road, Voix 😉
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I think that the thing to do, ius wait to see what our government does. Then….if’n you are not in agreement, we can discuss it. If it’s possible, I’ll defend it. if it’s indefensible, I hope that I will have enough fortitude to say so, especially if the vicissitude is going to change our world remarkably, for the worse.
iI’s wrong, IMHO, to assume anything with a man sporting an Oxford education ;)…please please don’t jump in here Viv. It’s just idle banter.
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Not quite what went on in real life, so far as education was concerned, Voice and during that classical period of say, from 7th c BC, Athens right up until the advent of Paul and his christianity.
Some brilliant poetry of 7th Sappho is testament to the sophistication of the education women received back then. (Her poetry may be read here: http://bacchicstage.wordpress.com/lyric-poets/sappho/ 🙂 )
And say, Praxilla of circa 5thc BC (http://bacchicstage.wordpress.com/lyric-poets/praxilla/)
And, of course, many others.
Educationally, in Athens and Sparta were equals, though in Sparta, there was bugger all education about anything other than military operations.
Gymnasia were for all who wanted to attend, unless husbands or fathers were oppressive. Schooling, in Athens was mainly peripatetic, ie, out in the streets or from one sophist’s house to another. In Sparta, it was a State-imposed affair for all.
Most of the leaders of Athens had very strong and vocal women, behind them, at times tutored by the same tutors who toughed their husbands and children.
Oppression existed, certainly but not in educational terms.
Hypatia of Egypt shows us a perfect example what happened once religion started to claim supremacy over philosophy. She was torn to shreds -literally- by the religious fanatics of the time (c 4th c AD).
The oppression of women went on, in spite of the brilliant education back then, and not because of it.
All tragedians have portrayed women as strong in all respects, and particularly in enduring pain stoically. Their utterances in almost all cases show intelligence and reason but also of compassion and emotion, whereas men are usually written monochromatically, simply as warriors, good as well as bad. There are many, many examples of this view.
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He might prove to be as brave and resourceful as kKng Leonides at Thermopylea.
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And, of course, women excluded from the precincts of education was something that went on most adamantly, right around the planet back then… and, alas, even now, in many places!
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King Leonidas was a Spartan. No other men were back then or ever since like the Spartans. Not only enormously brave and muscular, exceedingly skilful with weapons but also very resourceful. Abbott’s training was and is still so narrow that even an Athenian slave (famously the softest and laziest slaves in Greece) would drop him in a duel on any topic Abbott would like to choose.
What was his training? A failed seminary, a few bouts in a ring of punch drunk idiots, the least demanding course in a Uni which included him in their lecture theatres because of his devotion to Christianity… what else? Enough meanness to talk about asbestos victims in the most uneducated terms, the ability to merely grunt and stutter inarticulate monosyllabic slogans, the dubious skills of a pimp…
Have I forgotten anything?
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Voice I’ve responded to your comments re classical education but, because I’ve included some well known links (:)) it is “waiting moderation.” Gotta wait, I guess.
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Totally stuffed today!
I and a landscape gardener have removed three cubic metres of huge rocks from what I called a rock garden, which I put there to remove a fish pond, which was put there because I am an idiot, when we first got to this house.
With a bit more endurance, some more soil and a lot of hope, I shall be converting it into a herb garden.
But I am totally stuffed today!
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Don’t forget tarragon. It’s just super duper.
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Found muscles you forgot you had no doubt.
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Certainly did, Vivie and those muscles haven’t stopped reminding me of how I treated them yesterday. I ache all over!
I also think I got a bit of sunstroke yesterday, working in the hot sun all day. I ended up with an excruciating headache.
When I brought all those rocks here there were four of us -with a fifth dropping in and out during the process- and though it was still tough work, it wasn’t so prolonged and so narrowly apportioned.
The fact that we had very lightweight lunches didn’t help either.
Still, I look upon that corner now and my heart rejoices. Its begging us to turn it into a herb patch but I’m not entirely sure. I am now thinking of a “leafy patch.” Such as silverbeet, spinach that sort of thing. We’ve got a lot of big pots with various herbs which we use all the time so the need for a special patch for them isn’t that great.
I shall think upon the matter a bit longer.
As regards to the rest of the patch, I’m thinking of bringing the tomato and other veg seedlings out of the little hot house on Monday and planting them. It’d be just a little early but they look healthy enough to survive the foreseeable weather.
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Luxury! I WISH I was only removing 3 tons of rock.
Not really. Over here it’s been Supercleaning the spare room. Having removed all the contents except for the furniture, I’m sugar-soaping the walls.
And don’t touch those seedlings yet! They’ll grow better if you don’t plant them “just a little early”.
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Luxury! I WISH I was only supercleaning around here!
New soil and mulch arriving tomorrow. ABout a meter. What’s that in barrow loads? 20?
Oh, my back!
Why has this God made us so bloody frail and full of aches and pains? What was he thinking? If he has built us in his image then Zeus help him! He’ll be wishing he could undergo euthanasia!
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Remedial massage mate. I’d swear by it, were I ever to do something that unladylike. If you lived in Sydney I could recommend someone. Last time I had back problems I just skipped the physio and went straight to this guy. He’s part of a sports clinic. Honestly it hurt like hell at the time (except for the good bits where they do relaxing stuff) but the pain was considerably lessened the next day after I’d recovered from the massage, and as a bonus I could turn my neck fully for the first time in years.
An excruciating part involves taking the thumb and grinding it into the muscle with full force. I asked him if anyone had ever hit him and he said not on purpose. Then you get exercises to do at home and Bob (Constantine)’s your uncle. I tld him I didn’t want to keep returning to see him forever and four sessions did the trick.
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It was really better after the third visit but I felt honour bound to return one more time to make a marriage proposal. 🙂
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Voice, my usual remedy for sore backs is that one of my many women slowly walks up and down upon it, beginning from my shoulders and ending down by my tail, around five or six times. I lie flat on my stomach, on the floor with a pillow under my face and they do their work.
Absolute relief!
Mother use to love doing this to her two men but now she’s a little inconvenienced by a fall she had earlier this year. Mrs Ato or one of the daughters when they’re around and I need the massage, have taken over.
Been to a physio thrice only and regretted the fact every time. No remedy to be had, au contraire, suspected damage may well have been the result. I am cured of the desire to see another such beast!
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It has to be a good physio. I am very conservative about this stuff and have only gone to ones recommended by doctors that have proved themselves over time to be good themselves. I’ve been so lucky with physios and now this masseur – they have been brilliant.
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I see what you mean about Afghanistan and Iran, being a better life for women, gerard.
http://nypost.com/2013/09/21/my-life-of-hell-in-an-afghan-harem/
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The poor Tax payers in The Netherlands. (Please Note: No obligation to read this!)
Effective tax bill set to rise to 59% of salary for higher earners.
Friday 20 September 2013
Within three years, taxes will take up 59% of the income of people earning twice and three times the national average, the Financieele Dagblad reports on Friday.
This is up from the current 52% and is due to changes in tax reductions for the better off announced in this week’s budget. The FD bases its claims on calculations by tax experts and Christian Democrat MP Pieter Omtzigt.
In total over two million people earning more than €56,000 will start paying more tax from next year.
By 2016, people earning more than €100,000 a year will have to pay an extra €3,500 a year in tax, the paper said.
– See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/09/effective_tax_bill_set_to_rise.php#sthash.xTw33cOM.dpuf
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As I say I think these things spin out of control. My point has been missed. It wasn’t about education it was about racism. I say again: why single out American culture when so many other wealthy countries do worse?
Any fact I have introduced has been to challenge a prejudice. Americans rely on private education. Americans don’t value public education (in fact they spend a heap on it). All people in Nordic countries are the same. Sweden’s education as compared to the US is organized on socialist principles.
Here’s another assumption I’ve encountered on The Drum. An individual will sneer at multiple curricula and then laud the Finnish model, which defers curricula to municipal authorities.
It frustrates me that these assumers can never admit they got it wrong. I think its quite nasty.
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I didn’t follow this education debate. It always frustrates me. Too many people yabbering about things they really don’t have an educated clue about. Dumb assumptions, fantasies and BS abound. My husband is a retired teacher/college/university lecturer – I’ve seen education from many aspects over many years. Of course there are statistics and damn lies. Comparisons with other countries are often not comparing like with like. Changing demographics and studies of exactly what/where/when. Teacher bashing. Whose standards? What standards?
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That’s all I want to hear, Vivienne. Any comparison is complex. I am talking about education now. I don’t buy the idea that importing one system wholesale is the answer to all our woes. Particularly when our woes are overstated. Particularly also as the standards we use to compare are arbitrary (that’s my gripe with PISA). Who decided PISA measures a well educated child?
That’s not to say we shouldn’t tinker with some other countries’ ideas on a piecemeal basis. In fact I’ll say we should try Finland’s idea of no competitiveness. I like a team ethos (but I think we largely achieve it already in NSW public schools).
Its hard to find a serious discussion of the Finland system in English. Most of what you find is superficial puff pieces. But I have found two pieces, one by a Finn and one by a French academic that claim Finland has a conservative pedagogy. If true I don’t value that. I don’t want to emulate that.
I’ve heard it all before. Everyone in the world has a better education system than us. I used to be berated by Peruvians about the superiority of their conservative pedagogy. They could name the dates of Napoleon’s battles they said proudly. ‘Who gives a fuck?’, I would think to myself. An Australian student who has studied propaganda and national myths around The Great War has learnt a better lesson. Funny enough there’s a debate raging in Peru about that now. There’s an argument that their curriculum doesn’t equip them with critical thinking skills or skepticism.
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I agree.
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http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/2013-09-22/4962902
Half of all adults in Tasmania cannot read or write properly, and many of their children are following in their footsteps as badly needed school reforms are frustrated. Sarah Dingle investigates.
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Has a similar study been conducted in Norway? I say its irrelevant. If Tasmanians can’t read properly we need to do something about it. Gonski seems a good place to start. Gillard Gonski. Not no disadvantage to private schools Abbott Gonski.
If a Norwegian needs help I say help her too. I don’t see the need to compare what I suspect will be minor differences. The idea that comparison is important is yours. It is incumbent on you to now show that economic backwaters in Norway do not suffer similar rates of illiteracy.
I also don’t think it’s fair that you cherry pick data. You can’t make an assertion based on PISA and then ignore it as if it had never been when it no longer suits you.
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I looked and looked but in my reference to Tasmania, I so far, haven’t come across anything about Norway. Where is it?
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You mentioned Norway and Finland when you first bought into the discussion. But you’re right. If you want to establish your point you need to look much more broadly. You need to look at a many more wealthy countries.
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Wrong Voice, Sea Mendez.. You bring it up. You do so all the time. Have you got some obsession with Scandinavia, including Finland. On the ABC Drum; you are forever raking through Norway and Finland.
I am an Australian and proud of it. True, I admire much about Scandinavia especially their culture of inclusiveness and social cohesion. I have lived there. Have you?
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Anyone is quite welcome to look up the 2009 PISA results.
Anyone can see that Australia ‘beats’ almost all of Europe. I don’t know how one can beat the PISA drum so incessantly and not acknowledge these facts.
I don’t know how one can laud a generic Scandinavian approach when Australia ‘beats’ every Scandinavian country (I’m using the traditional definition that excludes Finland) by a significant margin. Take up Gerards challenge. Look at the figures. Is his interpretation fair? Am I going crazy?
If Australia ‘doesn’t shine’ how do we describe Norway?
A random observation. I heard Finland’s chief education bureaucrat interviewed by James O’Laughlan. He personally rejects the definition of Scandinavia that includes Finland but feels obliged professionally to defer to his diplomat colleagues. He also categorically rejected the notion that there was a Scandinavian approach to education. He condemned the approach taken in Sweden, Norway and Denmark.
Another random observation. The UK government is currently fact finding in Sweden. They see it as a model of how to outsource education and health services.
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Oh for haven’s sake! You are a typical confrontational person. What do you think I’m trying to do here? Do you think that I’m putting down Australian children? Can’t you see that we want the best education available for Australian children, and the children all over the world? The comparison between different systems is to highlight the fact that The Corporate World does not want our children to be educated outside of free-market ideology. To them we human beings are just numbers. They want uneducated workers, servants and soldiers to follow their orders. Not me .. All those Wall Street Corporations can go jump in the lake.
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I agree completely with regards to business trying to capture curricula. But now we’re dealing with Hydra’s heads. A new issue emerges.
If we’re so worried about business interference, why do we place so much faith in OECD developed criteria?
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Well, here is something random as well but with a later date.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-11/aussie-schools-flatline-in-international-education-tests/4422532
Australia ranked 27th out of 48 countries in reading, with its mean score similar to that recorded by New Zealand, Poland and Lithuania.
Another analysis, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), revealed results have not improved for Australian students since 1995.
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I see that Cassidy, actually wrote some sense at last
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He’s just arse-licking. He’s been doing that to the Libs for a year or so. He has to keep his hand in.
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All afraid of losing their jobs, you are right the arse-licking started about a year ago or so; The Drum TV has much more Liberal supporting guests than those from Labor side…I stopped watching.
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Actually, he’s just been reading my posts for a few years and finally realised the sense.
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Hph my question is very simple. I suspect the 3 you attempt to put in my mouth are deliberate obfuscation.
So lets restate my question. You introduced the idea that the US scored lower than Finland because of it culture of competition.
In what way is Danish culture deficient to the Finnish that explains its lower score? In what way is Italian culture deficient to American that explains its lower score?
Stand by. A lot of people around here a very concerned about civility. Expect to be rebuked for insulting my family. Its an amazing coincidence but the first post I made here made a joke on that theme. I think you missed it. The joke was very similar to your actual insult.
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Wow wow..slow down, sea Mendez. I did not insult your family. After reading my comments you are letting your imagination run wild. Don’t accuse me of insulting your family. If you are going to draw a false picture from my replies and start accusing me I will not come out and play with you.
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Here is a link about “education”
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
A line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: “Real winners do not compete.”
It’s hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland’s success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.
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I should have put quotation marks around the paragraph above. It’s from the article…
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I just checked the ABC the drum/opinion, and noticed that our National Broadcaster still publishing articles by Kevin Donnelly, all the more reason to stay away from there. Why don’t they ask Pasi Sahlberg for a contribution 🙂
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hph, there’s another article on education on the Drum…Tony Taylor’s story is accompanied by a picture of a Finnish classroom.. 🙂
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I decided to stay away from Donnelly – always gives me the shits ! Seems I have missed a bit of a ding dong of interest.
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…why don’t they get Gonski to write something…. the Drum heeds new contributors, it’s getting very stale, who wants to read anything by Peter Reith?
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Helvi, your gentle and sensible comments are needed there. Don’t give up, get in there and don’t mind the nasty people when they reply to you. 🙂
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hph, that’s so sweet of you, at least I know I can rely on some good people to support me: hph, HOO, Alge, viv, Reinhard, Juliet Jones, Rhonda, Rudlow, and others I can’t remember because I have not spent any time there lately…
I can handle some of Liberals, they disagree, but do not get personally offensive..
Occasionally I had to call the Mods, most time they removed the offending posts, and even sent me personal apologies on behalf of the ABC.
I might check the Drum next week 🙂
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Real winners do not compete. Finland is great because it ranks high in PISA tables.
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I’m committed to the idea that competition in education is futile. That extends to the need to compare ourselves to other countries. That extends to the hype about the alleged superiority of our private schools.
I’m not going to repeat my skepticism on PISA but it does seem to be the benchmark in the discussions. So here comes my point.
Why are we so down on the US? Finland scores 536 in reading for 15 year olds. The US scores 500. So we draw conclusions about culture and competition. But the US and Finland aren’t the only countries to take the test.
Iceland scores 500 too. Sweden scores 497. Germany scores 497.France 496. Denmark 495. Italy 487. So what’s their excuse? What cultural defects do they have?
Australia scores 515 by the way.
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South Korea => Reading: 539 (first) Math: 546 (first) Science: 539 (second)
Finland => Reading: 536 (second) Math: 541 (second) Science: 554 (first)
US => Reading: 500 (14th) Math: 487 (25th) Science: 502 (17th)
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AUS => 6th, 9th and 7th respectively
When the Liberals privatise our schools and education we’ll catch up with the US 🙂
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Why did you ignore my point? I laid facts on the table that you ignored preferring to introduce irrelevant ones. Please tell me what cultural defects Denmark has that explains its score, which is lower than the US. Please note too that Denmark does not have the economic polarization problems or second language issues that would tend to drag American scores down.
We already have a lot more private schools than the US. About 35% of students for us (I seem to recall don’t quote me) compared to about 10% for them. They spend a lot more on education than us.
Incidentally the percentage in the US is about the same as the percentage in Sweden. Sweden also has for-profit private schools. So go crazy. Kick some Swedish butt. Tell us about their cultural defects. Then try Germany, France and Italy.
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Question One: Are you trying to get answers to your questions from me because you can not find them on the internet ?
Question Two: Are you trying to find out what I know about education systems and cultures of other countries ?
Question Three: Have you been ignored a lot by other people, including by members of your family when you were young? – You seem to be very touchy when people ignore your irrelevant questions or your points whatever they may be (or how important you think they are to you.)
Question Four: Do you know that Pride is one of the seven deadly sins? (this is a joke) 🙂
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Thank you ,hph, for promoting the very excellent Finnish education system, I think it was last year or a bit earlier we had one of the Finnish educational experts visiting Australia, I saw him on many TV programs…I have to check his name, I’ll add it here when I know…
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It was Pasi Sahlberg…I could not remember the first name…
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Pasi Sahlberg, director of the Finnish Ministry of Education’s Center for International Mobility and author of the book ‘Finnish Lessons: What Can the World Learn from Educational Change in Finland?’
He is mentioned in the article, Helvi. 🙂
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WE came home latish and tired, meeting a friend for dinner in Newtown Sydney, I left the reading anything of more than two-liners until tomorrow. I’ll finish my glass of Shiraz and go to bed…read tomorrow 🙂
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Mention Finland or Norway and you get the expected response from Sea Mendez . I looked at the recent Pisa numbers and even there, Australia doesn’t shine. I don’t know anyone who lays claims to having Australian education at heart who agrees with the notion that Australia is anywhere good enough in our standards of language and mathematics at High school level.
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Extremely interesting
Press Council finds Fairfax fabricated AWU Gillard stories
A scathing assessment of the ethics of Fairfax Media by the Press Council confirms Fairfax’s decision to follow the tawdry lead of Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp in falsifying ‘news’ for political ends, writes Alan Austin.
http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/business/media-2/press-council-finds-fairfax-fabricated-awu-gillard-stories/
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Good to see this got so much coverage in the MSM !!! I always knew the allegations were a load of tripe.
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I wonder if Frangipani really believes shes a lefty. I’ve seen her say it more than once. But she seems to consistently favor Liberal over Labor. I’ve never seen her say a good thing about Labor or agree with one of its policies.
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Why should Frangipani not be free to be Labor or Liberal…I have never had any problems with her as she always behaves civilly.
Maybe she is a Green voter, who keeps tabs.
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I’m struggling to see where I said she isn’t free to vote Liberal or Labor. I’m merely indulging my fascination with inconsistencies, logical, philosophical, ideological or otherwise.
If I recall correctly she has described herself as a left of centre progressive. Its odd then that she consistently lines up with Liberal policy or expresses a pro-business, pro-market, ideology.
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I agree. I too find her confusing. Inconsistent anyway.
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Don’t be confused, Vivienne. People, who don’t make their political convictions and affiliations crystal clear for everyone to see, should never be trusted. I’d rather face someone like Pauline Hanson than turn my back to Frangipani.
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hph, there are some bloggers, who are Labor under one name, Liberal under another pseudo, and rude and unpleasant under both, so as Frangipani is always Frangipani , no matter what she writes, I do not mind as I know where I stand with her.
She has always been most civil when replying to me.
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Bye Bye Bella 🙂
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I can now go back to watching Q&A again, oops they still have Kelly O’Dwyer, another mouth, another chin to avoid…
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They are all clowns, Helvi, but Bella was a better clown than O’Dwyer. We need them on the panel of QandA so people will see the true nature of their politics. They are the representors of greedy and selfish rich class in Australia and when they are pressed hard by questions about social justice in our societies I laugh every time when they start mincing words. I can see the hidden hypocrisy in between their words. And I hope, so do majority of the people who are watching the programme.
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And cop this too Abbott.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10313055/Why-some-Australian-women-loathe-Tony-Abbott-especially-now.html
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She is a lunatic. No wonder Australia kicked here out…”While a student she began to publish poetry and short fiction as well as write student dramas. At university, her growing political awareness flowered and she was drawn into involvement with student politics and left-wing activism, and she was elected editor of the Wollongong University Student Representative Council newspaper, Tertangala. By 1998, Badham was an avowed anarchist and President of the New South Wales branch of the National Union of Students, caucusing with radical group the Non Aligned Left.”
What a hateful being.
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What makes you think she is hateful? Could you elaborate on that a bit more?
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Part of the problem is that Liberals have bad dietary habits. Not enough lentils. That causes a lot of misery.
Just look at them when they are not looking. Full of constipationary baggage. They are a bad lot in need of greens and fish oil. With Mirabella’s plight in Indi at least she has garlic and firm tight pull-ups to give comfort, in what now must be, her darkest hour.
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This week’s Play List did not appear! …Maybe this weekend?
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… I’m happy for it to appear twice a week, you one day, alge another day…
This blog needs more stories, more music, more pictures…
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…more recipes…hph, if you need someone to put up your stories, your music, and when Mike is too busy or in Indonesia, you can send your stuff to Gerard, he can always help.
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Thanks Helvi 🙂
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There are a few there for posting when Emm has the time. Earning money or other things are just as important.
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I agree, Algernon.
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Did you blokes misunderstand my post; all I’m saying that if you want post something and Emmjay is too busy earning money, I’m offering Gerard’s services as a caretaker.
Of course making a living comes first. All clear now, I hope.
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It wasn’t a criticism helvi, I’ve sent some to Gez before when Emms too busy, though I thought he was home. I think Gez has a short one from me for posting at some time that’s convenient as does Emm which is longer.
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All clear, Helvi.
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Here we are, near the end of the day and B1 and B2 have yet to give us a score!
Bloody hell!
Are they being pressured by the Bella forces for some reason or other?
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I think I’m gonna ring the AEC and tell them to pull their finger out! This is a disgrace!
I’m beginning to be persuaded by Palmer’s conspiracy theories! They’re all spies!
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Quite a decent article on the new political scene by Richard Deniss (executive director of the Australia Inst.) here:
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/left-need-not-abandon-all-hope-20130913-2tqoq.html#ixzz2eq5sA7Xs
“Delivering stable government is simply another three-word slogan but there is nothing in our constitution, or our political history, that suggests prime ministers should, or do, get their way.
Even when John Howard had a majority in both houses of the Parliament, Barnaby Joyce, his new National senator from Queensland, crossed the floor to vote against his legislation 19 times in three years.”
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Put this in your pipe Mirabella!
http://thehoopla.com.au/mirabella-virtuous-victim/
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Assume that is the one by Corrine Grant – she has a clue, coming from Corryong.
AEC being a bit coy (I posted on the Dot this morning) – still processing envelopes – gee, how slow can they go. But it is all over bar the shouting etc. Cathy has won. YEE HA, WHOOO HOOOO, WHOOPEEEE. I’m shouting. The drinks.
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I won’t take that drink yet, if you don’t mind, Vivie! I’m always reproached for getting too excited… prematurely!
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Latest from the AEC in Indi : 10.08AM UPDATE: Independent Cathy McGowan is edging closer to victory in Indi as counting continues in Wangaratta this morning.
AEC’s Steve Kennedy said 415 votes – a combination of pre-poll, absentee and provisional – would be counted today, giving a clear indication of the likely victor.
The AEC previously told the Border Mail that there were fewer than 500 votes to count, but Mr Kennedy said a further 457 votes had arrived today from interstate, a larger figure than expected.
These votes would be processed today, and be counted tomorrow.
A further 62 postal votes were still en route from overseas, but these were unlikely to affect the outcome.
The AEC is still hoping to officially declare the poll by Thursday.
Mr Kennedy said on current trends, Ms McGowan was “pretty certain” of victory and should win by more than 300 votes.
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Vivie there are later results than that. 11.35 update http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseDivisionFirstPrefs-17496-218.htm
But, shit! It’s the end of the fucking day!
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Yes, but those later results are actually still as of the beginning of the day. They did an adjustment on the number of votes still to be counted once envelopes processed. They are not putting any more figures up today. I’ve been checking the Scrutiny page and have noticed the figures changing which reflected more packages arriving from far away places. The tiny change was just what they should have done at the end of yesterday. Frustrating of course.
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Looking quite excellent for out Cathy!
Can’t wait for the announcement!
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Tonight on:
QandA: Clive was entertaining – He is a clown.
The Business: Ticky made sure the zipper was all the way up – boring… 🙂
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Even Iran is ahead with females in cabinet.
On your bike Abbott.
Ahmadinejad appoints 4th woman to cabinet
Afp, Tehran
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad sacked the head of Iran’s National Youth Organisation yesterday and appointed a woman to the cabinet post, official media reported.
Ahmadinejad removed Mehrdad Bazrpash and named Farahnaz Torkestani as the head of the National Youth Organisation, the official IRNA news agency said.
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Afghanistan has more females in Government than Australia.
http://www.news.com.au/world-news/women-better-represented-in-afghan-cabinet-than-in-australia/story-fndir2ev-1226720398777
It is amazing but with latest news Australia remains now a deep embarrassment to the world. There is just one female on the front bench. Finland has 86 women in parliament which represents 43% of its 200 members.
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