The Dump is:
For posting comments that don’t get up at the Drum, and for having a pleasant, mirthful or enlightening off-topic discussion.
It’s not for personal abuse of other commenters.
Please do that somewhere else if you must.
Play nicely or piss off.
However, why doesn’t a poster add a link for us to read and comment on here, much quicker. Maybe we can do a bit more bagging here, not that I speak for the moderators, yet.
NB: Being tiresome and boring, racist, sexist or just plain creepy is not playing nicely.
———-
The Pig’s Arms exists because a dozen or so years ago our other favourite playpen – the ABC’s Unleashed blogsphere started to go off. Like a sack of prawn heads in the sun. Something had to be done.
Moderation was taking forever. Comments seemed to be rejected randomly – outrageous ones appeared and reasoned ones were pinged. When they released the Drum / Unleashed ….. things actually got worse !
So many pieces from professional writers appear with no obvious merit. And the moderation has become, to put it frankly, appalling.
As a former contributor and a commenter, I was deeply disappointed at the plummeting quality from our pre-eminent media empire. And I resented so many challenging or dare I say, witty or funny posts in which we’ve invested seconds of our precious time – getting the chop.
So here, for all our benefit – is an open slather blog. Copy and paste your best rejected comments here for posterity. Does not matter whether you’re posting on the Guardian, First Dog on the Moon or wherever else.
And sprinkle pointers to the Pig’s Arms amongst your comments. Let’s try to rescue some of the old faithful.
Cheers,
Emm.
Window Dresser's Arms, Pig & Whistle 
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power_elite/interlocks_and_interactions.html
🙂
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http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/class_domination.html
🙂
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http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/11/dutch_tomato_growers_lead_glob.php
The world largest exporter of tomatoes.
Holland is also the third largest exporters of agricultural products. No mean feat considering they are also one of the smallest and most densely populated countries in the world. Amazing really. Just shows, that planned usage of available space is an answer in overcoming some disadvantages in growing things.
World Top 10 – Agriculture Exporters Countries.
(Australia is 185 times the size of The Netherlands.)
In Million Dollars
42,826 US
24,262 France
19,780 The Netherlands
13,842 Germany
11,613 United Kingdom
10,107 Canada
9,824 Australia
9,446 Italy
9,013 Belgium
6,621 Spain
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I don’t get these figures Gerard. There is at least (ABS figures) $20 Billion in grain and meat exported – which doesn’t include dairy and legume stuff. France’s figure is only high because I eat a lot of their brie.
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France is high because of their wine exports. Holland because of flower, tomatoes and chilies. We are talking about exporters not largest growers of staples. China is easiest the largest grower of staples, mainly for own consumption.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-agricultural-exporters-map.html
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The site sells maps and this map is based on ‘The Top Ten Agricultural Exporters map has been prepared on the basis of the total agriculture exports of a country. Top exporters include USA, France and Netherlands.’ Nothing about flowers and tomatoes. I believe as a statistical reference the site has zero cred.
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So they are not actually agriculture exports figures. Selective reporting from what source? Is this just a figure for wine, flowers, tomatoes – staples are not flowers. Sorry to be arguing but the figures are meaningless if they are so selective. I am sure that the figures for USA include things such as corn. It doesn’t make sense to me. But nonetheless well done to The Netherlands (I eat some of their cheese too).
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Perhaps these figures make more sense;
•Holland is the world’s 2nd largest exporter of agricultural products, after the USA. Together with the USA and France, Holland is one of the top 3 exporters of vegetables and fruit.
•The total value of Dutch agricultural exports was 75.4 billion euros in 2012.
•The Dutch agri-food industry contributes 52.5 billion euros of added value to Dutch GDP, and accounting for some 20% of Holland’s total export value.
•The Netherlands is responsible for 22% of the world’s potato exports.
•The Netherlands has the second highest private R&D investment rate (as % of GDP) in agri-food in Europe.
•Four of the world’s top 25 food and beverage companies are Dutch and 12 have a major production site or R&D facilities in the Netherlands.
•Two Dutch universities are in the European top 10 with regard to the number of publications on agri-food subjects.
•The Food Valley region, centred at Wageningen University and Research Center, is one of the most authoritative agri-food and nutrition research centres in Europe.
•NIZO food research owns the largest food testing pilot plant in Europe and is open to the entire food and ingredient industry.
•Holland is a global market leader in machinery for, for example, poultry and red meat processing, bakery and cheese production.
•Dutch agricultural entrepreneurs use efficient and sustainable production systems and processes, resulting in a productivity that is five times higher than the European average.
•There are some 50,000 farmers, or agricultural entrepreneurs, in the Netherlands, distributed over various crop and animal sectors such as arable (crop) farming, dairy farming and pig farming.
•The agricultural sector makes up approximately 10 percent of the Dutch economy and provides work and income for more than 660,000 people.
•More than half of the Netherlands’ total land surface of 4.15 million hectares is used as farmland. 56 percent if used for arable and horticultural crops, 42 percent is permanent grassland and 2 percent is used for permanent crops.
•In 2010, there were more than 10,000 hectares of greenhouses in the Netherlands. Half of this, 5,000 hectares, was used for growing vegetables.
•Tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers are the biggest greenhouse crops.
•The most common arable crops are: potatoes (seed, starch and edible), winter corn, summer barley, sugar beets and onions.
•Of the one hundred most competitive products produced in the Netherlands, about half derive from the agriculture and food sector.
Source: Statistics Netherlands (CBS), Dutch Federation of Agricultural and Horticultural Organisations (LTO), Wageningen University and Research Centre (2012).
See also the Dutch government brochure ‘The Dutch agri-cluster in a global context’, Facts and Figures 2010: english.minlnv.nl
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Got it figured – the high value of Dutch exports is because they get lots and lots of dosh for flowers. You can’t eat their flowers.
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Neither can one eat iron ore. 😉
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Gerard !! Iron ore and all the other minerals are not in this discussion. Not funny really. If flowers are part of the ag output value, so should grains etc be included in Australia. I’m sticking with the fact that food is food. Take flowers out of the equation and the figures would give a different picture. I’m not knocking the Dutch – just bringing a bit of reality into the figures.
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But, but.. where are the figures for grains not included? Of course they are included.
Taken all agricultural figures in the exports including flowers and grains, Australia is nr 7 or 8 and Holland is nr 2. a few years ago they were nr 3.
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Grains not included – I’ve given you the figures which show food ag for Aust is $30.5 million for 2011/12. The figures just don’t add up.
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The Netherlands is siuated on a river delta. Nothing amazing about. Look at where the first civilisations took root. Rich alluvial soils were key.
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Delta lands – true. We built all over ours and continue to do so.
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There’s a theory that Dutch are the worlds tallest people in part because of their nutritious vegetable intake. Apparently their vegetables are particulatly nutrient packed.
The Northern Hemisphere has an advantage in agriculture generally because of the last ice age. Glaciation churned up rocks leaving a rich soil. Didn’t happen here.
Of couse you don’t need to know this. A cursory look at a European field and an Australian will confirm the former are more fertile. And then there’s the water issue…
Gerard frustrates me when he holds forth on this topic. To him it seems the only relevant variables are space and sunshine.
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The annual rainfall in Tasmania is higher than Holland. Tasmania is also one and a half times larger that Holland. Coastal areas in Australia that get good rainfall are mainly taken up by the spread out of endless suburban dwellings and huge car sale yards & semi derelict industrial land laying idle for decades.
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Bloody hell, I hope they never dam up the Tasmanian rivers, knock down its forests, and maximise its agricultural ouput. That would be a tragedy.
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The Netherlands is flat. Horticulture is flat. Flat rich soils. Again this is why early civilisations grew on flood plains and deltas.
The west coast of Tasmania is not flat it is mountainous. It is relatively infertile. It is remote of population centres and markets.
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Thank you Voice. I also forgot to mention competition for land use. Wilderness is not an issue in The Netherlands. If the land lent itself to agriculture it was thus employed long ago.
I never could understand these Dutch. Why do they export all this food for profit. They should use it to support a larger refugee intake, which they could house quite easily on barges floating on the wide gentle waters of the Rhine. Its so easy. They mustn’t be very nice.
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The Murray basin alone is 25 times the size of Holland .Its extensive river systems carries 11.500 gig litres annually. It’s water is used to grow cotton and rice. Both crops are grown far more successfully and cheaper in Indonesia or India. Australians can’t be very clever not ever having done anything a bit more productive with such a large flat area. (and it is above sea level.) We just like the cleverness of obese mining magnates and ocker prime ministers.
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sea mendez, there is no room for more people in Holland, every inch is used, the population is almost as high as in Oz…
Here’s my suggestion: Could Australia take all the refugees in (we have the space), then Abbott could ask the Dutch leader to donate food to Australia to feed them They have the food, we have the space. Qantas and KLM could fly it here regularly.
Win/ Win Situation for all.
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TABLE 1
Overview of the Australian food industry
2006–07 2007–08 2008–09 2009–10 2010–11 2011–12p
Value of farm and fisheries food
production
a
$b 32.5 38.7 38.4 35.7 41.2 42.6
Value added, food, beverage and
tobacco processing
b
$b 23.3 23.3 22.6 24.2 24.1 22.9
– share of total GDP % 1.8 1.8 1.7 1.8 1.7 1.6
Food and liquor retailing turnover $b 104.4 111.7 118.8 125.7 130.4 135.8
– share of total retailing % 50.6 50.7 51.5 52.6 53.2 53.7
Value of food exports $b 23.4 23.4 28.1 24.5 27.1 30.5
– share of total merchandise trade % 13.8 12.8 12.1 12.1 11.0 11.5
– minimally transformed share % 23.7 28.1 33.7 30.7 36.5 40.8
Value of food imports $b 8.2 9.0 10.3 9.9 10.4 11.3
a
ABARES has revised the calculation method for the gross value of food production for the 2011–12 edition of Australian food st
atistics back to
1995–96.
b
Industry value added represents the value added by an industry to the intermediate inputs used by the industry.
p
Preliminary.
WHICH means that our food exports were worth $30.5 for 1011/12. Gerard, the Murray ‘basin’ or the Murray Darling Basin ? No cotton grown along the Murray to the best of my knowledge. Of interest is that those farmers who do grow RICE actually use the water twice, for the rice crop and then for another, i.e. growing rice isn’t as silly as some people think. Food grown using water from the Murray and adjacent rivers which flow into the Murray and the underground water sources include grapes, fruit, olives, nuts, vegetables, dairy and much more. Extensive cropping it carried out in the dryland areas of NSW, Vic and South Australia (and of course WA). I’m not fully up with Queensland but they too have a huge variety of food production. I find your view of what we do grow to be oddly very narrow minded and an unfair presentation of what is grown here. Sure, Netherlands does very well and it is all good news but your put-down of what we grow in Australia is unhelpful and annoying. There’d be a lot of people with bugger all bread and pasta without Aussie wheat.
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Come on Viv,
Where did I put down Australia on its agricultural production or exports? I was trying to make a point that Holland, one of the smallest countries in the world happens to be the second largest exporter of agricultural products and has also one of the worlds highest population density. Having been born there, I think it is pretty remarkable.
Australia makes good wine, much more professionally than France. Also remarkable.
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Gerard, basically when you said this (apart from putting up incorrect figures) ‘It’s water is used to grow cotton and rice. Both crops are grown far more successfully and cheaper in Indonesia or India. Australians can’t be very clever not ever having done anything a bit more productive with such a large flat area.’
I have always admired what the Dutch achieve – very resourceful people (invented the Stock Exchange I think). But your pride, although well placed, should not come in the same paragraph with unfortunate comments about Aussie food production. I still love you, just not your statistics !!
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My reply about the rice growing and Australians not being very clever was a response to sea mendez silly thing about taking on refugees on barges in Holland on the Rhine. I try and really do my utmost to understand her humour, that day hasn’t arrived yet.
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All the water in all the rivers in Australia would not fill the Mississipi. The Murray is manifestly a stressed river system. It regularly has toxic algal blooms. It regularly silts over at it mouth. Much of the problem is due to overexploitation of its water resources.
Any idiot can establish these facts. Many idiots try to deny it. Selfish farmers. Denialist conservitives.
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Barges on the Rijn, Helvi. You know it makes sense. Also its time for Amerstam to go high-rise. Knock it down and go up. Plenty of room. No excuses.
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Even more amazing when we know that large part of Holland is under sea level…let’s give credit where credit is due. How do they work with salinity….with the sea….
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Is Voice taking a break too? I hope she’s around. Surely Voice is excited by the Doctor Who anniversary film released today.
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I would ask her directly. You seem pretty close, usually responding in tandem. Have you looked around the corner? 😉
I am a bit curious myself.
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I wanted to talk to her about Doctor Who. She throws in the odd Star Wars reference at The Drum. Kind of got the idea that she’s a sci-fan.
Now you’ve put me in mind of another Drum commentor and comic genius who called himself The Borg and would claim Voice, Curious Party and me were also Borg. I’m keen to know if she got that sci-fi reference too.
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Hi Sea. Sorry about the creepy interjection – you must know what gerard’s like by now.
Yes, I am a Dr Who fan. Stereotypical as it is. Not sure about the sci-fan. I have a few SF books under my belt but they have other company as well.
So … I watched the global broadcast at 6:50am and enjoyed it. Loved John Hurt’s running commentary on the modern Doctors, good to see David Tenant’s facial expressions again, good to see the 11th feeling well in his skin.
The retro opening music set a good tone. The Tom Baker cameo was well-conceived I thought – a good way to fit in the aging actor and effectively providing a narrator to explicitly reposition the series. The flash of Peter Capaldi’s eyes was brilliant.
Great stunt dangling from the Tardis and loved the scenic view of 21st century London.
Jenna-Louise is clearly a bosom buddy of the Tardis now. I wonder if there’s some River Song lingering there from the mind-link at Tenzaloar?
I sigh indulgently at Moffat’s sense of humour – it’s ubiquitous in his programs and a bit juvenile; on the other hand the comedy between the 10th and the 11th was enjoyable.
What did you think? she says hoping not to get something overwhelmingly introspective in reply.
P.S. Star Wars references? When?
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P.P.S. The scarf got a cameo role. Genius.
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I love Doctor Who – I have the boxed set of the first two new Doc Who series which I thought were brilliant and better than any of the old stuff – mainly because of the technology and having a better tv !! I taped the morning showing and watched it at my leisure. It was good but not fantastic. I satisfactory 50th birthday celebration. I love sci-fi – Terminator I and II especially. I watched all the Star Trek stuff way back in the 60s and adored all the Star Wars.
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I took [redacted] to the cinemas to see it. He wanted to take his sonic screwdrivers, he has the Tennant and Smith versions. So I bought him a bow-tie. I put on my my most fitted suit and sandshoes and off we went.
OMG! I’m a nerd!!!!
That was fun actually. It made people happy. Young kids in particular in Westfields were smiling at us and wanted to talk to us about it.
The film itself was over the top but it was easy to get in the mood. I like that they didn’t let him off the hook. He still had to live with the darkness and his wounds. They could potentially have made the character a lot less interesting by resolving that.
Potential spoiler alert.
The cameo brought a round of applause at the cinema. The cheeky guy had been giving interviews saying he wanted to put The Doctor behind him and wouldnt get involved if asked.
It was schmaltzy but again easy to get in the mood and buy it. It was touching too when the three doctors tried to share the big descision.
The Christmas Carol allusion just hit me. I wonder if it was deliberate. They did do that Dickens episode once. I’m wondering now if Hurt has ever played Scrooge.
The ending bought a round of applause too. Redacted joined in and was smiling broadly so that was rewarding.
—————
Once at The Drum I latched on to some lame media release ‘study’ that showed Australia in a good light and started banging a nationalist drum about it. You compared it to Anakin flipping to the Dark Side. On stereotypes I’ll confess I did think to myself (smiling good-naturedly, I wasn’t looking down) That’d be right!’. Probably says something about my prejudices.
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So Voice and Vivienne. Would you agree with my assessment that ‘Blink’ is the best episode ever.
Very scary, very clever and it says something positive about being human.
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Blink came close to scaring the s..t out of me. I didn’t really enjoy it. I can’t name a best of any series. I’ve got a lot of favourites. One old series which I totally, overwhelmingly adored was the Blakes Seven series.
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Vivienne: Fancy that – another Dr Who fan! I didn’t need it to be fantastic. For me it was feel-good which is appropriate for a celebration of 50 years, and I appreciated the references to the past without wallowing continuously in nostalgia, and the way they used Hurt to critique the present. I liked how it manage to be upbeat without disowning seriousness.
You must be of the Tom Baker vintage, as am I? I originally started watching the new series out of nostalgia; I was surprised how well I took to Christopher Eccleston’s Doctor. In the episode when they brought back the Daleks I had a nostalgia high.
SM: You lucky bastard. When you want to do something like that, it’s good to have kids as a cover story.
Yes, I recall that (deliberately OTT) reference now.
I saw the first Star Wars movie in London (so must have been early eighties) and of course the special effects blew me away, as well as the sci-fi type adventure/god vs. evil.
When the Anachin Skywalker arc movies came out much later, I watched them with the kids. 🙂
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That was meant to be good vs evil. Of course when the kids saw the earlier Star Wars trilogy they were not particularly complimentary about the special effects. But that was NOTHING compared to their scorn for earlier Dr Who episodes.
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I’m not a best-of type person, SM. But I do like Blink, more for the timey-wimey stuff than any philosophy on being human.
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I think I do have a particular soft spot for the first Angels episode with River Song – when she summons the Doctor via the world’s most ancient graffiti.
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Oh no, I like that too, but I got it confused. She summoned him via the Black Box. Later she lands the Tardis.
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But, Voice – did you ever watch Blakes Seven ? 50th celebration of Dr Who was, as I said, good, just not fantastic. I didn’t have any particular expectation of the show. I think they did a good job but just maybe it could have been a bit more thrilling.
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Forgive me, Vivienne. I did see some of Blake’s Seven, but … and again, forgive me, it did not make much of an impression. Could be something to do with where I was in my life at the time but I can’t be sure as I don’t remember either where or when it was I saw it.
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Musing in the background, I think The Girl In The Scarf (I can say girl, SM, gender and age privileges) represents the Dr Who fan-nerds.
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I first started watching Tom Baker. Coincidentally the baddies from yesterday were the scariest for me. I was particularly unsettled by their slimy brown skin.
I once ‘woke’ in the early hours as a four year old (what were my parents thinking?) to see them operating their console in the middle of my bedroom.
Tom Baker bears an uncanny resemblance to my father, by the by. I was getting pressure to go as him for that reason.
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Voice – Blake’s Seven was on Friday nights somewhere around 1980. You had to watch it all to be as enthralled as I was at the time. The girl in the scarf was indeed a good nod to the original scarf Doctor. Clever come to think of it.
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…. and the fans of course.
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I used to love Blakes 7 as a kid. Hired it on DVD recently…
Very underwhelming. Have seen it recently?
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I saw a few eps again some years ago – it didn’t carry over in time unfortunately. But my memory remains. At the time it was great. The old Doc Who stuff looks a bit silly today.
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For the love of Abbott…
https://www.facebook.com/TheAbbottoir
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They’re too kind.
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When our pollies are no more, they want more:
Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard demand bigger perks for former Prime Ministers
http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/julia-gillard-and-kevin-rudd-demand-bigger-perks-for-former-prime-ministers/story-fnii5s3x-1226766891140
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Just a beat up as always.
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Possible apology alert!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-23/tony-abbott-writes-to-indonesian-president-over-spying/5112886
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Yeah, but ……… he’s not saying what he wrote to his best friend. We might hear something from SBY in due course.
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Even the cows are getting nervous.
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Is anyone in contact with Astyages, I have missed him…. Also does anyone know what Madeleine is up to? I have seen hph on the Drum, but not here lately…
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I missed him too, my first shot went to the right.
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Okay The Drum for some reason wouldn’t let me comment at the Nathan Rees affair article that everyone had missed the point. Even the Tele missed the point preferring salaciousness.
The woman involved had come to him looking for help with public housing. I think that for him is ethically questionable. There’s a power imbalance there that he shouldn’t exploit. AND that he should not seem to be exploiting. He should have run away a thousand miles from that situation.
They also blocked my separate post singing praise to sex in parks, on beaches, in national parks, atop the weird pyramid thing at Sydney Olympic Park and at a carrel on the seventh floor of Fisher research library. Go crazy in that regard, Nathan. Knock yourself out!
I don’t know what their bloody problem is with that! I included the specific caveat that one should make sure it was late at night to avoid offence.
—————————————————————–
So I’ve been away for a few days. My reasons:
1. Crazy busy at work.
2. Not switching ones brain off causes migraines,
3. I wanted to read something proper. (The Trial, or its English translation. Gotta be the most Kafkaesque thing I’ve read), and
4.I got bored of typing stupid things just for the sake of typing something (but here I am refreshed)
Is Jules really not coming back? It’ll be a bit boring without him. All a bit same-same. I think he went a bit far with the gendered epithet but I’ll miss him.
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I hardly noticed. Sorry to hear you suffer from migraines.
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Well stripe me pink! I can’t win!
One week you’re accusing me of hit and run (or bomb throwing and run) Then I offer an explanation (in no small part as a response to your complaint) and you tell me you didn’t notice!
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I tried a bit of sarcasm. I don’t agree with the point you thought you were making about Rees and I thought the second part of your comment was mainly a backhander.
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Who bloody cares about these ‘ scandals’, not I. Most likely a set-up like it was with Della Bosca few years ago. I think only Alan Jones listeners and Telegraph readers are interested. If you are married, it only concerns husband and wife….not me.
Both Della Bosca and Rees are good politicians and likeable people…no casting of stones from me…
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The Telegraph is not a rag worth reading or wasting money on. As Tony Windsor said our family uses Sorbent. Do they hire Journalists there? Like you I’m not interested in politician peccadilloes.
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Again I think you’re missing the point, Helvi.
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Certain points are best missed, I did not even read your post, I just wanted to say once again ,how I hate this kind of nosiness about other people’s affairs…Rees is ex-Premier, a private citizen.
People ARE reading this rubbish, that’s why Murdoch uses it…so sad…
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As one migraine sufferer to another you have my sympathy. Not that I’m offering advise however my pharmacist put me onto Magnesium daily. My migraines went from 4-6 a month to maybe 1-2 and no where near as intense.
On Jules, I think he needs time away from here for a bit to get on top of things.
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I take a Magnesium tablet daily, because I get cramps in my feet at night time. They are very helpful, I just have to remember to take them……..
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I’m using them as a preventative and medicate when I do have a migraine.
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Maybe that explains his unseemly outburst. I don’t like the word ‘bitch’. Its part of suite of methods societies use to silence women’s voices. Don’t mind rough and tumble but ‘bitch’ is too much, IMO.
Mendezes get weird migraines. Heavy on the neurological symptoms like aura (and some occasional rare and freaky ones – walked out of a high-pressure, highly charged, meeting with my CEO and my right ring finger became paralysed for a few hours), light on the headaches. Dad doesn’t even get headache. My headaches aren’t debilitating.
I’m open to the magnesium suggestion. As I say though, I think I need to switch off. Too much pressure at work and then too much thinking about debates I’m having in various internet.
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SM I rarely take time off from my migraines though sometimes after medicating I’m unable to string two words together, most the time I’m fine afterwards. The Younger suffers as well but fortunately only two or three times a year. My Doctor was surprised when he though I was in for my migraine medication and I told him I was only half way through the script.
What I use is called Premium Magnesium. It might not work for everyone, but it appears to be of some benefit to me. I find taking myself out of the stressful situation helps too though sometimes that is not possible (as I’m sure you know) and the migraine comes a day or so later..
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The air is still with anticipation. Will or won’t Mr Abbott apologize? Thousands are clicking backwards and forwards on the ABC News web-side button.
A nervous nation awaits.
It’s almost as good as watching the Olympics.
Certainly better than cricket.
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You got ESP Gerard?
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I wonder if Tony Abbott, his wife and his daughters’ phones had been tapped by the Indonesian security. Would our response be as calm and measured that Indonesia is showing?
We are talking about the personal phone tapping!
Or, if the US’s president and wife’s phones had been found to have been tapped. Drones would be over Djakarta right now.
Tony Abbott by now should have had the grace to have flown to Indonesia, given flowers to Mrs. Kristiani and Susilu, followed by a sincere apology to both of them.
(Susilo comes from the words su-, meaning good] and -sila, meaning behaviour, conduct or moral.)
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Well if we’re playing hypotheticals…
If the Abbott phones were tapped, how would you feel? What would you do?
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What’s hypothetical about it? All I’m asking is to replace one name with another. If it has happened to one head of state, it can certainly happen to the other and it looks as if it’s highly likely that it will anyway?
Dismissing it as a hypothetical does not erase it from the possibilities nor the probabilities available!
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Atomou I’m focusing on Gerard’s hypothetical which is a fairly precise prediction of what ‘our’ response would be if it happened to us.
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Possibly demand an apology but Tony being Tony frankly I don’t know. Shit happens, they’re very very bad, diplomatic emergency, they’re out of control, or you’d better take that up with Scott Morrison.
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The basic fact is that ALL countries spy on their neighbors. ALL leaders are outraged when it is discovered/leaked. The leader of the spying country is expected to apologise profusely. The spyees continue with mock outrage for a while. Spying country manages to find evidence of spying by the spyee….more mock outgrage, more apologies. A few weeks later, best of mates.
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Dance? Did you say dance, my boy?
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Brilliant ! The boy in the blue loincloth is fantastic…
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Love it, SO MUCH. Were they the guys in BranNuDay – they did what I think was called the Chicken Dance.
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It is the Arnhem land Islander chooky dancers – did the Zorba one too on Aust Got Talent. Been entertaining us for 4 years or so.
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Abbott is now at a crossroad of his career. Will he be big enough to do the right thing and apologize? Will he remain stuck in arrogance? Australia is a small country in population and Indonesia huge. We need Indonesia more than they need us. Keating said twenty years ago, that Indonesia matters more in importance than the US.
My guess is that he will not apologize. He is stuck, like many of similar background, with an almost impossible fixed idea of prejudice and condescension towards anyone of non-European-Anglo background. He genuinely feels, erroneously, he has the higher moral ground. He espouses similar ideas about the treatment of asylum seekers, no matter how cruel and unjust his stance is.
We shall see.
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I think we can all see the fix he and Australia is in but unfortunately Abbott has made it worse. All they want and probably need is an apology. Abbott says he ‘regrets’. I don’t think the leap to the word sorry or apologise is much different now that the spy mob have said to them that it is not happening now and won’t happen in the future. Abbott has made the situation worse. I don’t know if Australia can explain what happened to SBY and his wife – maybe just say someone got over enthusiastic and out of hand. Our spy mob have admitted it happened.
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More seriously, Vivie, it’s an indication of who is truly running the affairs of nations.
The military, the corporares, the internal “secret agencies” and the external “spy agencies” have been allowed to do completely as they like, when and how they like. Politicians will either shut up or be thrown out. Examples here and everywhere else abound!
All these surreptitious organisations are “multinationals” now!
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Yes, and Liberal supporters on the Drum say that Rudd directed our spies to do this. Ignoramus mob through and through. It is possible that Howard asked for close watch on Indonesia following the Bali bombings but I don’t think he told them precisely what to do. They do do as they like.
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Bob Carr was on the radio the other day. He said that the foreign minister would have had to sign off on the operation. He indicated that ,given his understanding of the timing, the foreign minster would have been Stephen Smith.
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The reality is both sides of politics and countries have been doing this for years. All Abbott had to do was pick up the phone to SBY and talk it through. Instead he decided to be heavy handed instead,
Whilst it didn’t happen on his watch he is the PM. He only needed to explain apologies privately then move on. The man lacks diplomacy, He doesn’t get that SBY has lost face that above all is the issue for him. As to whether the government of the day knew, who really knows no point speculating.
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Well I think you’re wrong there too. When pressed for more details Carr resolutely responded, ‘As former foreign minister I will not comment on intelligence gathering activities’.
Abbott is not exercising a personal decision or demonstrating his heavy hand. He is sticking to the established policy of the Australian Government.
Should he change policy? Maybe. But Im sure they have it for good reasons. Lets not make a knee jerk descision.
I feel this is relevant to Gerards comment too. It looks like Labor done it. Now Abbott is implementing the established policy.
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Algie, did you see Downer adding his two cents’ worth of crap? He was positively belligerent about it, as if we are privileged in the spy-and-insult field and THEY (those minuscule little Indonesians over there) should just cop it sweet, and apologise to us for arguing about it!
This is why I have this nasty turbulence in my guts that warns of Abbott wanting to be yet another War PM! He’s certainly lining up all the ducks for it.
It’s a party that suffers fro congenital rust. Every bit of their being is ceased by rust, and they were born like that -at least so it seems to me.
Downer, for Zeus’ sake! Such a fantastic diplomat that they’ve sent him to do his laughable bit in Cyprus! I can just imagine the laughs the Greeks and the Turks are having after the meetings he attends! And they’d be laughing at us because they’d be thinking that this moron is the best we’ve got – or the worst, in which case both sides would be insulted.
But, like the govn’t before this one, alas, what we’ve got is a horde of sock puppets with the hand of Pentagon up their bum.
Alas!
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SM, why does it matter two chicken droppings who did it? Its time has come. It back fired. It is proven to be wrong. It puts a great many things in this relationship in jeopardy. If you weren’t wishing a war, why not just pick up the phone and avert it?
What knee jerk decision?
Are you waiting for, say, Malaysia to do the same to Abbott and his loving women next, in solidarity, then followed by, say Pakistan… in solidarity, followed by Iran… in solidarity.Are you waiting for all the politicians’ phones to be tapped by anyone on the planet?
Would that be the right time for you?
It’s a case of stupid bastards running the our military and our secret agencies at the behest of the stupid bastards who run the american military and their “secret” (I’m coughing phlegm now!) services?
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That’s right SM Carr would not comment like Downer would not comment. I’m unsure If Carr said as you say. Spooks don’t operate that way. As Ato says it does’t matter a jot whose watch it was on. Both partys do it, It just so happens that something is reported from 2009. Now I know having lived in Indonesia that I’m right on SBY and that I’m afraid is the crux. Abbott has shown a tin ear to Indonesian sensibilities. On not wishing to comment I agree however he needs to talk to SBY and that he simply doesn’t get.
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Alan Kohler (on The Drum) making sense. Gittins in the SMH doing the same but a different take.
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‘Alan Kohler (on The Drum) making sense’, as opposed to Peter Reith, who got a big bag of money to rubber stamp CSG in Victoria.
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Yep – Reith as relevant as that famous Auditor the ex solicitor/barrister Costello doing a job on Queensland books.
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Vale, Doris Lessing. You can comment here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/nobel-prize-winning-british-author-doris-lessing-dies/5098030
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There was an interesting clip on SBS where as a mature woman then, she received the Nobel Prize for literature and she was so sanguine about it. She said she’d received so many prizes and awards that this was just another one – albeit a great one. She said she now had a royal flush ! I can’t say I’ve read any Doris Lessing, but my Ex was a big fan in the seventies and eighties and Doris certainly made a presence in our library.
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Below are the credentials of Thom Woodrooofe, who has written numerous articles on The ABC. here’s a list:
Stories by Thom Woodroofe
28 June 2013: Could the UN be Gillard’s next destination?
7 May 2013: Google diplomacy’s superpower challenge
5 April 2013: From foreign policy novice to globetrotting diplomat
1 February 2013: Election date undermines hard-fought diplomacy
19 December 2012: We all bear blame for foreign aid deferment
3 December 2012: One step forward, two steps back on climate
28 November 2012: Washington’s Pacific Strategy is steady as she goes
20 November 2012: Palestinian bid for UN status as Gaza burns
6 November 2012: America’s next foreign policy brass
30 October 2012: DFAT isn’t ready for the Asian century
23 October 2012: Obama’s foreign policy advantage
19 October 2012: How Australia can wield power at the UN head table
25 September 2012: UN victory within sight
13 August 2012: It’s not youth pushing to lower the voting age
5 July 2012: Stop bagging Australia’s Security Council bid
20 June 2012: Rio+20 must correct the economic imbalance
7 June 2012: Romney’s own ‘game changer’
21 May 2012: NATO: the Australian experience
7 May 2012: Is Putin the saviour of Syria?
23 April 2012: If Australia’s doing so well, why cut foreign aid?
26 March 2012: A clear and present danger
20 March 2012: The race for the World Bank top job
5 March 2012: Foreign Minister Carr’s world view
23 January 2012: Volunteering students should remain just that
28 December 2011: Tax, not targets, focus of climate debate
16 November 2011: An unpredictable Obama doctrine
1 November 2011: Time to get rid of the Arab League
24 October 2011: A year to go in Australia’s UN bid
12 October 2011: Quiet diplomacy always best
29 August 2011: Bad timing for a jet-setting Julia
6 July 2011: The top diplomat
21 June 2011: Give Rudd credit where credit is due
25 May 2011: Australia’s bob each way on next IMF chief
28 April 2011: Jetset Julia and the strange cast of royals
24 March 2011: Australian troops could be casualties of cluster bomb ban
11 February 2011: How the coalition led then lost the aid debate
4 January 2011: Obama should give peace a chance
17 December 2010: As innovative as a chalkboard
10 December 2010: Why WikiLeaks is good
30 November 2010: ‘tis the season for climate talks
1 November 2010: What Kevin Rudd can learn from Hillary Clinton
21 September 2010: UN should step aside on development
12 August 2010: Young global voters
6 August 2010: The male politician’s wardrobe
7 April 2010: Why are our military commanders silent?
4 March 2010: No one is born a terrorist
Thom Woodroofe, 21, is a foreign affairs analyst combining journalism, research, teaching and community work to advance an understanding of Australia’s place in the world.
In 2009, Thom was recognised as the Young Victorian of the Year for his work in establishing Left Right Think-Tank, Australia’s first non-partisan policy body of young people. He is also the founder of Global Voices which coordinates youth delegations to important diplomatic forums abroad.
A freelance commentator on foreign affairs in print and on television, Thom has contributed on the ground from hotspots such as Burma during parliamentary elections, communist Cuba under Castro, and on the Middle East peace process from inside The West Bank.
Thom is also a non-resident Associate Fellow of The Asia Society based in New York and on the Global Agenda Council of the World Economic Forum based in Geneva.
Thom has worked for both sides of politics overseas: in the United States Congress for former Democratic Speaker Nancy Pelosi and for former Republican governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in California. He is the youngest member of the Australian American Leadership Dialogue and the Australia Israel Leadership Forum.
Thom has been one of the youngest participants at gatherings such as APEC and the G20 bringing him face-to-face with world leaders such as presidents Obama, Hu Jintao and Medvedev. A regular public speaker he has addressed audiences such as the White House Press Corps at the National Press Club in Washington DC.
Thom has previously been named one of Melbourne’s 100 Most Influential People by The Melbourne Magazine, one of the region’s leading young people by The Asia Society, and one the world’s emerging security leaders by the St Gallen Symposium in Switzerland.
Thom holds a Bachelor of Arts (Global) from Monash University which involved study across four continents. He is currently teaching and reading for his honours thesis at the University of Melbourne.
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One of his recent articles praises Julie Bishop.
This on: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-15/woodroofe-spy-scandal-brings-out-bishops-best/5094488
Now separately, we have some comments about Julie bishop by other people, who ply other trades.
If one was lucid, who would one pick to agree with?
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Not Thom. Julie Bishop’s charm offensive has been as popular – and as effective as pork chops at a Bar Mitzvah.
Jules, I reckon a balanced space cadet is still a space cadet at the end of the day.
What’s with this guy ? At 21 ! Can’t he do drugs, ride a motorcycle and pull chicks like a normal young blade ?
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I’ll agree to disagree with you about Bishop. My instincts are that she will grow into the job. And who do you want in your corner, a pushover like Carr, or a battler?
Anyway we’ll leave it there and see how it plays out over the next 9 years 😉 At least this post will stand as a witness.
I’m more worried about ‘The Boot’, he needs some lessons in détente. But again, It will play out.
I’m taking leave for a while – – I can hear Algy and Helvi’s sigh of relief.
It is far to partisan and grumpy here nowadays, and, in fighting it, I fear that I have become infected myself, therefore serving no other purpose than a token punch-bag despite me returning a few uppercuts.
All the best Mike.
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Well if your taking a break Jules, look after yourself and return occasionally.
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For those wanting to know what’s going on in Australia http://www.thejakartapost.com/
Put it in your list of favourites.
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Fascinating. I can see why you read it. And why people flock there for a few years. It’s a wonder that they ever leave. But I suppose the lure of even more riches and some welcoming, overcomes the fear of drowning
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013/11/18/the-new-rich-drive-demand-luxury-cars.html
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/paedophile-priest-gerald-ridsdale-pleads-guilty-to-new-child-se/5099280?section=justin
What is it about religion that produces all these vermin?
It’s becoming a world wide catastrophe now.
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Blair and Bush! The British and the American Govnt’s!
And we thought Husein and his Govn’t were the evil ones!
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/17/chilcot-inquiry-tony-blair-bush
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If the evidence shows that Blair lied, he should stand trail. There can be no doubt.
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Damn this squirt of ours! Suddenly she turned vegetarian on us! One vego in four!
Looks like risoni with vegies for her and risoni with bolo for the rest of us! Bugger!
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I’ll email you my vegie lasagna recipe if you like. 🙂
It’s not that hard to cook vegie meals once a week, I’ll bet you could easily modify your stuffed peppers recipe to make it vegie. Hopefully she’s not vegan, so you can include fetta.
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Maybe she’ll grow out of it !
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I think Antony Lowenstein’s theory on the assassination of Rudd has quite some credibility:
http://antonyloewenstein.com/2010/07/02/does-the-zionist-lobby-have-blood-on-its-hands-in-australia/
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In the whole scheme of things at the time – I’d give it 1% cred.
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Ok.. On a lighter note. Now watch the responses.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-15/swedish-ice-hotel-forced-to-install-fire-alarms/5093492
Ha,haha,ahha..ohhahaa and Sweden too.
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Yes, pillows and bedding might catch on fire with all that hot sexy stuff going on.
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Come on, Ato, Voice, sea mendez, Carisbrooke et all. Here is something light, easy and breezy. Come on, you know you can do it. Don’t forget it is Sweden!!!
Ha, ha, hahaaa. oh ahhaaa.
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Well, what I want to know is, ‘is Scott Morrison there’? Is he on Twitter?
What’s he up to? Is he married? Does Kevin’s Kamp legacy affect his family life – or what?
I can’t get enough of him. When are you doing another article on him?
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Carisbrooke writes ‘One would expect a better grasp of English vocabulary, from someone who aspires to transcript…I’m just saying… ” – transcribing work is typing word for word, exactly, what is said (from a taped interview). Another illustration of his not understanding what he is saying all in the cause of irritating me and at the same time using the wrong word! No doubt he’ll have a third go at calling me a “housewife” – strange way to get a kick or whatever.
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Good night one and all.
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The new Royal Baby, George, has already done three of the things on my bucket list.
1. Become a billionaire
2. Met the Queen
3. Sucked Kate Middleton’s Tits
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Well I suspect Mrs Jules will be trilled about that.
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thrilled
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She doesn’t mind jokes Algernon the 1st ® ®. She’s an educated woman, not a pseudo divisive busybody.
She’s probably similar to your spouse, I’m sure.
I’m sure that little internet joke has whizzed around the world faster than a particle in a Hadron Collider.
Mind you I don’t tell her about conversations in here. I’m pretty sure that the discourse wouldn’t keep her attention.
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Ba dum tish.
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Anyone hear Abbott say FARRA GO – twice. That’s ‘something’ from a Rhodes Scholar to remember.
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Meanwhile, that cornerstone of numeracy, Joe Hockey, has announced the potential for a ‘US style shutdown’, if legislation for the lifting of the debt ceiling doesn’t go through. Sounds like more scare-mongering to me!
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He went to the USA to get some more lessons from the Tea Party mob. It didn’t work in the States but seems Hockey is going to give it a go here. He’s is of course off his rocker.
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/any
1b
2b
Any = all
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Obviously you can PICK ANY ONE YOU CHOSE.
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Choose. You chose the one which suits you.
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Well, perhaps we need an umpire, to look at the context?
I nominate A.T.O. Theodopoplous
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This the part which offends you : ‘Liberal supporters will say anything but mainly just lie. One can’t believe a darn thing any of them say including their MPs.’ I urge you to read it again, slowly and carefully.
Whatever definition of the word ‘any’ you choose remains irrelevant. There is no context. No contest either. You are wrong. I won’t response to any further niggles from you on this matter.
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From the office of A.T.O Theodopolousosos:
I refer you to a most acceptable resource on the net, dealing with the etymology of english words is:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=any&searchmode=none
From the below, it is possible to conclude that
i) an means one
ii) –y is a means of creating a diminutive, much like the suffix –ish is a diminutive in examples such as smallish, coldish, largish, etcish!
iii)
Thus, the first example given by the OED, “anybody” would mean, “something in the vicinity of” (one of many bodies). So, it is not “all” from a particular group but one, from that group.
“Give me any apple,” therefore, means “give me ONE apple” (from that group of apples, or that group of items where an apple might be included). It does not mean, “give me all the apples.”
any (adj.)
Old English ænig “any, anyone,” literally “one-y,” from Proto-Germanic *ainagas (cf. Old Saxon enig, Old Norse einigr, Old Frisian enich, Dutch enig, German einig), from PIE *oi-no- “one, unique” (see one). The -y may have diminutive force here.
Emphatic form any old ______ (British variant: any bloody ______) is recorded from 1896. At any rate is recorded from 1847. Among the large family of compounds beginning with any-, anykyn “any kind” (c.1300) did not survive, and Anywhen (1831) is rarely used, but OED calls it “common in Southern [British] dialects.”
anybody (n.)
c.1300, ani-bodi, from any + body. One-word form is attested by 1826. Phrase anybody’s game (or race, etc.) is from 1840.
anyhow (adv.)
1740, from any + how (adv.). Unlike the cases of most other any + (interrogative) compounds, there is no record of it in Old or Middle English. Emphatic form any old how is recorded from 1900, American English.
anymore (adv.)
one-word form by 1865, from any + more.
anyone (n.)
Old English, two words, from any + one. Old English also used ænigmon in this sense. One-word form from 1844.
anyplace (n.)
1911, from any + place.
anything (n.)
late Old English aniþing, from any + thing. But Old English ænig þinga apparently also meant “somehow, anyhow” (glossing Latin quoquo modo).
anythingarian (n.)
“one indifferent to religious creeds,” c.1704, originally dismissive, from anything on model of trinitarian, unitarian, etc.
anytime (adv.)
one-word form by 1854, from any + time (n.).
anyway (adv.)
1560s, any way “in any manner;” variant any ways (with adverbial genitive) attested from c.1560. One-word form predominated from 1830s. As an adverbial conjunction, from 1859. Middle English in this sense had ani-gates “in any way, somehow” (c.1400).
anyways (adv.)
see anyway.
anywhere (adv.)
late 14c., from any + where. Earlier words in this sense were owhere, oughwhere, aywhere, literally “aught where” (see aught (1)).
anywise (adv.)
Old English ænige wisan, from any + wise (n.). One-word form from c.1200.
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“Lie” and “mislead” are no longer parliamentary terms, though “electricity Bill” is.
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So, if I say that one can’t trust any Greeks, how many do I mean? Or should I say, what is the connotation?
Do I mean ONE, several – or indeed any?
Vivienne wrote, that ‘one can’t believe what “any” of them say??
How many is that then?
I can understand her not wanting to continue this analysis, since, it is obvious that she meant ‘all’, in this context.
One would expect a better grasp of English vocabulary, from someone who aspires to transcript…I’m just saying… 😉
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Obviously if you say one can’t trust any Greeks, the connotation is that you are a humbug, a hypocrite, a vagabond, a loathsome spotted reptile and a self-confessed chicken strangler.
Anything else I can help with? 🙂
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Firstly, Cazo, you’d have to be a very brave man to say anything like that, particularly to the face of any Greek!
But, what you are actually saying is that you can choose any one of those Greeks (there) and s/he will be untrustworthy, the implication, of course being that “of that group of Greeks there is no one who is trustworthy.” Remember the “group”. Now if you are implying that the group comprises all greeks on the planet -dead, alive and to be alive- and that this is what I understand you to mean, then, yes, you are saying, in effect, that all greeks are untrustworthy.
To make it a little easier to understand this “group” concept, think of the difference between the definite and indefinite articles. When do we use the word “the” and when do we use the word “a” or “an?”
“The” we use when we are talking about one in a group: “Pass me the apple” means that both the one who asks and the one who may pass the apple know which is the apple in a group, perhaps of fruit.
We use the indefinite article, “a” or “an” however, when there is no specific group that includes an apple, thus: “Pass me an apple,” means that the said apple might be located anywhere, in any group, including one of apples. The group, itself is of no relevance here. The indefinite article means “one”, just as the “an” of “any” means one.
Shall I pass you the bucket?
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Voice, you’re a braver man than I is!
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Atomou: It’s an extract from the Secret Policeman’s Other Ball. I like to throw it in here and there because it has such a good ring to it.
Caz: The relevant bit “you are saying, in effect, that all greeks are untrustworthy.”
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Ms Voice, you so funny!!!
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Thank you Big M, but as you can see from my note just above, when you are shamelessly plagiarising Peter Cook’s biased judge sketch, you can’t be anything BUT funny.
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Who would have thought that someone saying that I said that ‘ALL liberals are liars’ would lead to this excellent thread.
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I’ll humbly, accept all of the credit, in fact any credit. if there is an ounce of credit, i want it. it’s owed to me not just by anyone, but by youse lot.
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On second thoughts, it’s probably any Greek in here! (That deserves the credit.)
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Just got home. Changed my shoes and now out again into the hostile (pending) thunderstorm.
To walk the dogs. Anyone want a dachshund?
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Dachsund is the only breed of dog that I really dislike. Had one as a kid. It was like a bloody ferret. Dug holes, ate through a timber fence, ate part of a hose!! Went ‘to the country to live’, which may have been a euphemism for a visit to the vet.
Currently have a West Highland Terrier, who’s had an anterior cruciate ligament repair, PLUS an exploration of the other knee, which had previously been repaired. He’s feeling sore and sorry, we are feeling very poor!
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I hope it is warm and you have a dog drying area. You must be well accustomed to dog walking in thunderstorms if I recall correctly from past posts.
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Mu Mum’s little dog, is have foxy/dachshund. it chases boats along the river, when I walk in Rosser Park, twice a day.
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Where did I get the idea Carisbrooks dogs are Cavalier King Charles Spaniels? I’m getting old. These details used to stick.
Big M works at Saint Swithins Hospital. I know thats right. Or was it Albert Memorial…
John Bull has barred himself, Carisbrook, but he wants me to tell you Daschhunds are unmanly, foreign dogs and innapropriate for a British chap. They are for simpering continental types. Whats wrong with good old fashioned British fox terriers he wants to know.
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Okay I gotta read this stuff before I sound off. The Daschund is a recent addition.
Which means I may be right about the Spaniels. I should add that John Bull tried the same comment about to WS at The Drum re spaniels but it didnt get up.
I share JB’s love of Foxies by the by. Excellent dogs. Tough. Honest. Tolerant. Fun loving. Cant understand why they’re not popular these days. Especially good with kids because of the toughness. They can cope with the odd bump without lashing out.
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SM :
Awkward, what?
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What are you doing skiving off at the keyboard this time of night?
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