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Dear Friends of the Pig’s Arms – we’ve been collaborating a bit lately with friends at the new blog – thedailybludge.
This little gem from one of their readers – Denise – CFMEU response to mining industry gnashing, wailing and rending of garments…. We’ll all be RUINED !
Window Dresser's Arms, Pig & Whistle 
Link from Fairfax ‘BrisbaneTimes’
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/politics/we-stand-by-meekly-as-the-rich-greedily-assert-their-power-20100613-y5ut.html
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Warrigal, did you write that for Clive? Good stuff.
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I just got around to reading it too. Then I got sidetracked refreshing his unleashed stuff.
I like his portrayal of the wealthy downtrodden.
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It’s good isn’t it? That’s about as excited as I’ve seen Clive in print for a long while. More power to his pen!
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Clive Hamilton usually makes very good sense.
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And dresses a treat.
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I can’t understand why people don’t start their own mines.
Australia’s so big that surely all one has to do is go down to Coates, or Kennard Hire, get a few diggers and spades and start exploiting.
All this fuss about tax, when we could just dig it up, store it at home, and have 100% .
Why worry about a paltry 40%
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Agree entirely Hads mini….And Hurrah for WM’s 100th post.
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I’ll have to put this up as the 100th post–as poor old thingeme, is in moderated limbo!
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What a silly thing to write Little H. I think you need to imbibe a pint or two of Trotter’s Ale – quick.
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What’s so silly.
I reckon we should be allotted a mine each. just like the old gold-mines.
But,…sigh, eventually, ONE person would own them all, because that’s life.
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Julian, now you are being silly too. This subject is just too important for anyone to be so stupidly flippant.
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Just one teeny weeny problem ViV. The subject may be important, but this venue is flippancy encapsulated.
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Ah then……hmm, you know what? I’ve got great tits. See what you can mine from that!
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Thanks for sharing that Viv
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I missed that: took the dogs for a walk. Prove it!
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Have an ale and use your imagination (think perfection).
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I was speaking with the Mother in Law last night. She lives in WA where she has lived all her life except for a few years during the war when she lived in Melbourne. She was like Malcolm Frazer until recent years a Liberal voter. Mrs Algernon was interested to know what ordinary West Australians thought about the RSPT tax. M in L stated that most West Australians had a grudging respect (basically they can’t stand them) for the Mine Owners but are not adverse to them paying a fair amount of tax. What those in WA don’t like is their mineral wealth being used to build eastern states infrastructure.
It was staring Mrs Algernon and I in the face, those Western Australians don’t like give those Eastern Staters anything. Those West Australians that have not traveled across the sand curtain dislike anything “Eastern States” (that includes SA), those who have traveled across have a different perspective. Their not against the tax just how it will be spent. We suggested that they could vote for Tony Abbott, her retort was are you kidding, I’d rather eat dogshit.
So there you have it, Labor should keep Rudd as leader and he should transition out sometime in the next term.
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Keep Rudd, for sure. It’s the warranty that Malc needs to win!
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You’re indefatigable JL. A lesser man would have given up on us pinkos and gone and watched the football; but here you are flying the flag for your side and doing a great job I might add. Good humour and a comfort in your own beliefs. It’s an admirable thing really.
But then you are one of us too. Perhaps our shared “Pigletness” transcends our political allegiances; and that’s as it should be.
Barman another Trotters for my bearded friend.
(I now have a beard too. First time in my life.)
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Well I hope she’s right and there are many more like her; otherwise I can see ABC Enterprises publishing a book of “Best Dogshit Recipes” with tie in 6.30 slot program, perhaps presented by Poh, (sorry, irresistable), and promoting it on our advertising free ABC.
Mind you the West has always been a bit odd, a bit out there. Students of our federation will know that they didn’t really want to come on board back then, and only bought the ticket on the basis that NSW and Victoria would pay through the nose for WA infrastructure. Kinda the reverse of the situation now.
Politically it’s natural fascist plutocracy and always has been so it’s little surprise that it’s behaving the way it is now. It’s one of those places where you still have to dress the right way, have the right tie, gone to the right school, to get into certain places. This’ll make you laugh. The Parmelia Hilton, a swish hotel down town, used to be very proud that it had Mussolini’s dressing mirror as the centre piece of it’s foyer decoration. I was once thrown out of the foyer bar there way back when for not being correctly dressed. We were staying there you see and I’d come down from my room for a drink with some friends unaware that at 6:00PM a strictly enforced dress code came into operation. My slacks and Nike trainers were no longer acceptable and I think my Ian Dury Tour jacket with “Sex and Drugs and Rock’n’Roll” logo really offended there sense of decorum. A very proud moment that one. I also understand that James Taylor’s band was thrown out of that bar when they were staying there too, oh now the memories are flooding back. John Newcombe was also asked to leave because his tennis gear was unacceptable. Ah happy halcyon days of my youth.
Who was it said “In the midst of life we are in Perth.”
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The book could be produced by Murdoch press to make an interesting
ménage a trios.
Having worked there myself I was always amused by attitues like I was take jobs off West Australians, blow the fact that they didnt have the expertise in the field. Or having to leave work early to miss the traffic. Four cars at traffic lights was a traffic jam.
Mrs algernon used to look sternly at me when visiting the west when I would note Welcome to West Australia turn you watch back thirty years, nowadays she nods in agreement. So does my sister in law and she lives there.
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Yes and here in SA it’s wind your watch back 5 years, scrape half your brain out and don’t bring your sister
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You’re not suggesting gimme six are you hung
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Six?
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Perhaps I’m thinking of Tasmania or some of the remote valleys that surround Sydney.
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Yes in SA we just hate everybody but equally of course
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The miners can’t eat their product, the stuff they did outta the ground, maybe the farmers should hold back on selling any food to the miners.
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Farmers sure get a worse deal selling their renewable product than the miners do selling [our] one-off stuff.
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That’s a whole other discussion that one. And give it time, it’ll become the only argument in town because strangely enough a lot of these new mines, particularly in Eastern Australia are located, or want to be located, right where the best, most productive arable and grazing land is located.
We need to eat good food and drink clean water. We don’t need the gold and minerals, we just want them.
Welcome by the way Scott. You should come often and stay as long as you like. We’re an eclectic bunch but good for it all the same. You’ll fit right in.
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Thanks Warrigal. I’ll be around for sure.
Some of that mine/farm debate has been happening near where I live, and it might be that the message is starting to get through at last.
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Not Copper Hill near Molong I trust?
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Careful here scott. One “Molong who?” could ruin the relationship.
Warrigal, the man who put Molong on the map. Could Mongrel and The Runt become more famous than The Dog on the Tuckerbox?
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Not at all. I mean the upper hunter – Scone etc.
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One only has to look on Google Earth to see how vulnerable you are there in Scone. The big pits have reached Muswellbrook, there’s that big loader at Aberdeen and that thing only makes sense if the pits go further north; and there you are right in the line of the big coal miners dreams of even greater and dirtier glory.
It’s not just Gerry Harvey’s thoroughbreds that are at risk, that’s prime fat lamb and wool country too. But I don’t need to tell you that do I Scott.
There’ll be no more cup and ribbon winners up your way if the miners get their way but the incidence of silicosis and other respiratory diseases will sure break some records.
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If you fly Sydney-Tamworth or Sydney-Armidale you can see the extent of the mining. It’s a real shock to see it. Also just driving up the Hunter Valley[I live in Newcastle but work up the Valley] you see an amazing number of pits and waste piles right beside the highway.
It would be harder to find a more immediate demonstration of the need to move to sustainable energy, however we’re really stuck in the past right now. Also, very little of the money – besides wages – stays in the area in the form of investment or infrastructure. The Upper Hunter communities are really struggling at the same time that enormous amounts of money are taken from their environs.
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“It would be harder to find a more immediate demonstration of the need to move to sustainable energy,”
Well of course the major disaster out there is The Gulf catastrophe. And full credit (or an opportunistic political stance) to Obama, as he is now on the ‘sustainable energy’ theme.
It may be the “EVENT” that we had to have!
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Why is it that people seem to think that moving to sustainable energy will stop pollution? Particularly if the same people who made the decision to drill the Gulf without spending the money to build in safety precautions are the people who dig up the resources needed to build wind generators, or decide how to dispose of the nuclear waste, or where to get the massive quantities of water needed for arrays of solar reflectors for large scale electricity, etc. etc.
There will still be holes in the ground and plenty of opportunities to pollute.
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Am ignoring oil disaster because it sickens me. Off-shore drilling was a US election issue, with Bush pushing it off course. Total travesty. Realistically Obama couldn’t stop what had already started. He has no spare political capital to spend, and nothing would have been achieved because it would have been reversed as soon as he got kicked out even if he got it through Congress which is doubtful.
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All good stuff, but just speaking for the upper Hunter…
It’s prime farming land, some of the best in the country, in the world, and it’s being torn up to pull coal out. That’s coal, the filthiest most carbon polluting energy source still in wide spread use. Sure in time the miners are required to remediate the damage and to cover their massive spoil heaps with soil, deal with acidic ground water etc etc. and in twenty, thirty years there’s trees where the spoil heap was. But you can’t farm it. It won’t produce anything you can eat and you wouldn’t want to water your sheep or cattle on the creeks and rills because the water is filled with bio-accumulative heavy metals and will be toxic for a century or two.
But at least it isn’t like Virginia or other places in The Appalachians. There they remove entire mountain tops, fill entire valleys with spoil, contaminate entire landscapes.
Jules I hope you’re right and this Gulf disaster is the wake up call “big oil” and by implication, “big coal” need to get their house in order because you’re right too Voice, there’ll always be holes and the more of us there are the bigger the holes will be and the more shit there’ll be lying around after the hole is empty.
Putting all these operations on triple bottom line accounting may go some way to resolving the matter, because if we as a species don’t control our numbers and factor the future into our current accounting, to put it crudely, we’re fucked.
We can’t eat coal and I an tell you for a fact I’m not getting rich of coal mining and I don’t know anyone who is.
Have a look at this.
http://forum.huntervalleyprotectionalliance.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138
It includes an satellite view of the Hunter Valley pits from Singleton to Muswellbrook. You don’t get the scale of the thing except from space. Scott’s also right. Most of these little towns are just coal miner dormitories these days, their agricultural diversity and commercial hearts gone, dead, because apart from mine wages, none of the value and wealth created stays local.
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… and I think it gets worse. Something that I’ve become aware of thruogh my work is that many mines work on a 12-hour shift system [like the Police in many places], it is becoming obvious that this causes really severe problems in the families of many workers.
Typically it is the dad working at the mine, and he is rarely present with his family in a normal day, either working or asleep when kids are up at home. After some years of this there are often major problems within the families of these guys, who are more or less helpless to stop the problem – unless they quite their jobs.
Added to this the mines themselves seem to make almost no investment in the social or cultural life of the communities involved.
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Scott, the fact that there are a couple of new coal loaders being built in Newcastle is good evidence that the coal mine s are expanding further up the valley.
Coal mines exert an enormous amount of pressure, both politically, and financially. They are always prepared to donate a few thousand to hospitals, etc, ‘just to help out’. I’m lead to believe that the NSW economy virtually runs on coal exports!
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Julian, the fact that not only the coal loader(s), but a new rail line, has been built, suggest that the miners want to get the coal to the ships quicker to fill bigger contracts. The rail and loaders were/are a bottleneck. Sadly, the government missed a chance to parley this into rail improvements in the Hunter Valley that may have enable a future inland rail corridor that has been mooted for a couple of decades.
There are consistent applications to expand and a good number have been approved in recent times, although not only the Scone one was knocked back – there was another denied on environmental grounds just prior to this as well.
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At least things have improved since Aberfan.
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I’m a former Labor party member and I don’t believe that the party takes its orders from News Limited. Caldwell had a fair go and was replaced by Gough. Hayden had a fair go and after failing more than once, was replaced by Hawke. Hawke had a fair go and was replaced by Keating. After that there was a bit of piss farting around with clowns and jugglers.
Rudd won in a landslide and managed through the GFM. I cannot see Western suburbs voters giving a tinkers cuss about fat cat miners whiny carrying on. And the party is definitely going to give Rudd a fair go.
I like Julia, but her work has been just so-so. I think the electorate and the party want to see some real runs on the board before even considering a change, although if Rudd gets done in the election (highly unlikely), then we might see an orderly transition some time later.
Sure, the Pink Batts debacle was bad – but for a handful of voters. The fiscal stimulus – as dodgy as it was/is in schools is feeding a lot of tradies’ kids. Whales – apparently taste delicious.
The Carbon tax was also a debacle, but not pivotal in the election – and it won’t be until the waters start lapping the shores of the marginal electorates – and then nobody in their right mind believes that the coalition is going to give out free sandbags and turn back the tide. People who are disappointed with the Rudd government’s handling of climate change are suddenly going to vote for the arsehats who deny it’s very existence ? I don’t hink so. They may vote Green, but that will end up as a Labor vote – just like it did in Tassie.
Immigration – is a dodgy deal but not an election decider. Only the total rednecks and the chardonnay socialists would vote on that basis. Remember Tampa ? Horrendous, but not pivotal. And the left voters who are disappointed with Rudd (like me) are going to therefore vote for another Siev X from the neocons ? Not really.
Does anybody vote against Aussies being in Iraq and Afghanistan ? I mean apart from me ? Apparently not.
But everybody has a very clear notion of WorkChoices – and the Australian population hates it and the bastards who invented it – with a passion. Hopefully forever.
If the truly sh*thouse NSW Labor government was half decent, they’d do the right thing by the party and go to the polls now – because they’re going to get slaughtered anyway – and they might as well do the Feds a favour and allow 5 million or so voters to get their anger out before the main game.
Let’s remember – the papers are all whining about going broke – because nobody reads them any more – so how do they expect to give an election win to Abbott ? But if Rudd wins, I’ll bet it won’t be the namby pamby Steve Conroy putting the boot into their bandwidth.
And Kerry O’Brien and the ABC Board had better watch their arses.
Prediction: Labor win with reduced majority. More tax for everybody; more obscure tax breaks for everybody. Not enough widespread arithmetic to spot the difference. Footy on the TV. Beer in the fridge – Trotter’s Ale, of Course.
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Well I bet you’re glad you got that off your chest, Emm.
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Two can play that game:
All this speculation about Rudd’s leadership and whether or not he’s going to get tapped on the shoulder and replaced by a Gillard Tanner team, well it’s all horse hockey isn’t it? Really?
The real political leadership game is still within the Liberals and whether or not they’ll have the sense to dump Abbott down a very deep hole and draft Malcolm who hopefully will tell them where all the rump Howard fascists can sling their various hooks and other devices of devilish electoral torture, and go the the election with a revitalised, renewed and focused Liberal Party that actually stands for something that can be construed as in the national interest. I wouldn’t vote for the Liberals in a fit of any colour you choose but it would serve us all better and at least they could lose with dignity. (Jules would be able to hold his head up too and there’s a lot to be said for looking out for your mates even if they do vote for the other team.)
News Ltd? Can’t read it! Can’t wipe your arse with it.
It comes down to this. We are the Australians our parents told us about when they spoke of the future. This is our election, not Clive “Jabba The Putz” Palmer and his bling twinkling Rolex wearing friends’, not Rupert Murdoch, who’s obviously been sniffing too much of Wendy Deng’s perfume lately, Nor Mark “Rupert Lite” Scott, no matter how much he may think so. The ABC? Eight cents is about what it’s worth these days.
If you don’t want this to all turn to shit you’ve got to get involved, get out there. Because as a very dear and wise friend of mine said only recently (Algy it’s payback time); “All politics is local” and it’s at the local level that this election will be won or lost. Not by a lot of over amped political posturing and pontification by amateur pundits like us.
I remember stumping for Gough. That was a lot harder than this even looks like being, though the stakes may be a lot higher this time. So lets all get a little real here. The answer is in involvement and engagement. We should try to be the Australians our kids will talk about.
Are ya with me!?!?
(Was that rolling? Did ya get all that? I don’t think I could say it again.)
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Beautifully said Warrigal, loved the passion. I got stuck into the Tory pamphlet pusher at our little local shops last week. Around this time the local shop keepers most of whom I know personally really get the shits about these people coming in a dumping there rubbish upon us. Completely stumped them. The Liberal candidate has managed to insult the locals by repeatedly saying that Bennelong is sacred Liberal ground, that most people think that they made a mistake installing McKew as the local member and various other tosh.
I pointed out how insulting it was to have Bennelong described as “sacred Liberal ground” and they came up with some dribble about it being sacred to the Aborigines, well I dare say it may be but they missed the point.
One needs to maintain the rage.
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Yeah WM, lights, action.
It’ll be interesting to gauge the reactions of journalists, commentators and media, tonight, after Malcolm’s speech.
I watch SBS every-night. It’s on soon at 6:30. They’re fairly un-biased.
It will lead on from The World Cup that I was watching..
The English goalie must feel like shit! !
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That was from me, of course. My pseud jumped the page from a comment about Hung’s stuffing somewhere else.
That’s what happens when one tries to be clever.
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GO THE MALC..
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/13/2925712.htm?section=justin
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So now Malcolm is doing stand-up comedy!
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Malcolm is finally showing some political nouse. This plays well to real liberals, not the fascist Howard rump, and puts Rudd in a bad light and completely sidelines Abbott.
Whatever else you may think of Turnbull he’s no idiot. My question is though is this the start of a run to leadership before the next election in which case we could have a real fight on our hands; or is he positioning for a quick easy pick up after Abbott throws away the next election.
I’ve got to go for a bike ride with my Grandson, who is more important to me than any politician or their ambitions, so more on this later.
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I don’t know where all this is heading WM. However being pragmatic…In fact let’s call a spade, a spade. The electorate hate Rudd now. I don’t see what he can do , apart from abdicate, in favour of Julia. however, much as she is a favourite with you stalwarts, she is a huge risk, before an election. She doesn’t appeal to me at all–and I am guessing that she doesn’t (appeal) to a good portion of voters.
Now ; Abbott is not popular either. That’s the feedback get from Liberal diehards who ‘were’ enamoured with him when he first scraped in.
Now whether Abbott knows this or not, is hard to determine. If he doesn’t he may be prompted by Liberal heavyweights, if they see Malc ascending. And of course that is Malcolm’s ploy. If he seems to be garnering ‘love’–and seen as the best of a bad bunch*–he may become embroiled in some sort of Coupe Deville….Oops sorry, a typo, coup d’état is what I meant….Didn’t he only lose by ONE vote before?
* I mean best of a bad bunch out of all THREE parties.
Maybe Rudd is Lazarus, but methinks not. It’s not bad luck that has found him in this situation. It’s a bad brain! He makes even Vivienne appear bright; and Hung appear conciliatory! ! !
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To change a either leader of at this stage would be political suicide so I suspect that Rudd will face Attila. Had the tories gone to the election with anyone else they’d probably be a laydown misere, however they’re going with Attila. Given that most women hate him, 1 in 5 Liberals have difficulty voting for him and that he will explode Latham like during the election campaign, I think Labor will get another term.
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Rudd could very well lose against Attila, Algy.
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Possibly Julian, Attila needs to win seats and its very hard to unseat good local members. Labor won’t lose Bennelong and its a bellwether seat.
12 years ago Howard was in a far worse position than Rudd finds himself in. Cuddly Kimmy thought he’d just coast to a victory and he did win the popular vote 51-49, however we all know that that Howard won the election. Also Howard went to an election with a GST policy that people didn’t want and that 62% of the electorate voted against. I suspect that once the hysteria regarding the RSPT tax dies down that people will see that with some modification that it is a good tax. If he can convince the Mining industry then Attila is exposed just like he is on all other big issues.
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The problem with the mining tax is, that regardless of it’s merits, it will not be agreed to for two reasons.
1. The big miners, smell blood. Rudds scalp.
2. Abbott smells blood.
3. For the above reasons those parties will keep stirring and stirring no matter what Rudd, or Swan offer.
So the only way to get it agreed to, is complete and utter (apparent) capitulation by Rudd.
NOW, I know that there is no-one in the western world that is more experienced in capitulation than he, but, the horse will have bolted by then.
And of course The Libs will be able to implement the tax,( why wouldn’t they, we need the money now) and pick up the glory..
“The tax we had to have”, but botched by Labour. I can see it now..Or my names not Abdul Abulbul Amir!
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Ahem…er hmm, now we didn’t like the tax because it wasn’t structured correctly. However WE The Liberal Party now think that..ect ect ect.
La la la.
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Correction Julian – the Liberals and the Murdoch press hate Rudd.
Don’t quote me de Lacy either because I also know his brother and they are both money grubbing opportunists. Tragically it seems that Rudd’s brother is not very nice. There is a lot of good stuff being written about the RSPT but none of it hits the front page anywhere and the ABC is actually lacking balance with its journos just parroting Liberal mantras.
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Maybe Julian, the rolex revolutionaries looked pretty silly in Perth during the week and when I had another look this morning it was a very small crowd. I suspect that sentiment maybe turning against the the miners. The Cabinel community meeting in Perth had a far larger crowd in attendance.
Just because the Miners are against it doesn’t mean that the mine workes are in my experience. Look at Twiggys comments before and after his meeting with Rudd. The miners can agitate but risk losing support. The Liberals are just opportunists. I don’t think that Rudd will capitulate he can’t afford to his political career depends on it.
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Vivienne, I watched the ABC news last night. The opening headline was about de Lacy who is now a coal mining executive, so his comments are clouded by his self interest.
Next was a Westpoll of 400 people. The poll insn’t even reliable given its such a small sample. I suspect that “The West Australian” could have just as easily taken the poll in Cottesloe and Dalkieth as thier sample. Just after that the newsreader made a politically biased comment after these two tabloid issues. If I wanted to watch that level of rubbish I’d watch channel 7. The balance is rapidly leaving the ABC and becoming more and more like the Murdoch press.
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Yes Algernon. And… it is spreading like a virus throughout the ABC. I have been blaming Mark Scott but not entirely sure now. Do we need a Richard Alston attack on ABC ‘bias’ etc. Someone must give them a boot up the bum. Unfortunately I live in a rusted on Liberal voting area and getting in touch with local MP is useless (that huge electorate called Farrer). The neighbouring one is worse (Sophie M).
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Coming from a political party that doesn’t believe in climate change what was the point of this stupid outburst other than to grab a headline. And you want this turkey to become PM Jules? Dear oh dear.
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Well, your leader is constantly grabbing the headlines, but for all the wrong reasons.
You must feel as if you’re handcuffed to a donkey 🙂
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At least Malcolm is showing that not everyone in the Liberal party is an outright fascist.
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oops…I meant “isn’t”…
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Julian. Are negotiators under N in the phone book? How does an ordinary person get one? Do you have to pull a thorn from their paw? Is it a case that if you have to ask then you might as well forget it?
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I once had a business card with the title Senior Negotiator. I can’t tell you what. I’d have to kill you!
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Blast. The only person I know in that died leaving behind her a two year old son. Both my father and his brother would have been perfect, but they are no longer available either.
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I’ve read that twice..Would you like to edit it?
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I mean perfect to help me negotiate. Am I missing something? That’s the second time I’ve asked someone that question in the last couple of days. Must be losing it. Seriously, I don’t see anything in the comment to cause you to do a double-take.
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Maybe I just didn’t understand “I know in that died”.
Don’t worry. I am just off to watch some of The World Cup. Even though it is only Greece v Korea. I think England’s on later. I have a wonderful chart that I can consult. I sent it to (your) Hung.
Actually I’ll try and post it here. It’s really clever. You will appreciate the tech-side.. MMmm Algy may be interested too.
Pasting…pasting
http://www.marca.com/deporte/futbol/mundial/sudafrica-2010/calendario-english.html
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Let me know what you think. 🙂 🙂
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… I know in that, died. You were right. I was wrong.
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P.S. Web site seriously impressive.
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Kali nichta..or something like that!
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Very interesting Jules very interactive.
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Voice, look them up in the yellow pages they are stuck between nationalists and nitpickers 🙂
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Hung: LOL
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Thanks Voice, looks like we are mates again 🙂
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What has amazed me in recent weeks is that Rudd having done many good things over the last 2.5 years has managed on many issues to blow his feet off several times. One thing at the moment is that this bloke couldn’t sell ice blocks to Eskimos. This RSPT is a good and sound idea not that you would know from the mining industry.
I suspect something changed this week, the Rolex revolutionaries out there with their well made placards. Dopey dwarf wanting to give Twiggy a hickey And Abbott doing his best to fiddle with the mining industries nether regions. Twiggy going into a meeting Rudd with all guns blazing then coming out quite conciliatory. Then there was the community cabinet meeting in WA where if you believe everything you read you’d have expected they’d be baying for blood and the opposite happened. There was more interest in how it would work. Take the hysteria away and information starts to flow. I suspect if it was anything like the community cabinet meeting in our area recently it was attended by local citizens rather than a rentacrowd.
Rudd has little choice than to prevail here even if it needs some negotiation. After all the petroleum tax works in a similar way and has benefited the country for 20 years. If he doesn’t then the country will be at the beck and call of these industries and it will be these industries that will be telling the government what to do.
If he does prevail with some compromise then Attila Abbott will look shallow but he is that anyway. A policy void surrounded by hot air.
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Now! Listen up you lot. If I don’t get my way here I am going to launch all out warfare on my keyboard… And if that doesn’t work, I am going to spit on your Pseuds.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/12/2925509.htm?section=justin
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Okay – you never know the day may come when you scratch my back and I scratch yours! I’ll hush up for now as busy arranging a meeting with Kev.
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Has anyone read the website that is promoted on the mining company ads? Without going through it in detail, it is worth noting that they are promoting the following countries as stable alternatives to Australia for mining:
1. Mozambique
2. Thailand
3. Somalia.
Possible reasons:
1. website hacked and joke ideas put up
2. attempted satire
3. no idea.
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That’s our biggest bargaining chip, isn’t it? Apart from actually having the minerals. If you could just pick minerals up from the ground everybody would be doing it. It takes huge investment and making that in an unstable country is a business risk they’d prefer not to take.
Of course, an unpredictable tax regime can’t be good for business either. There’s a certain business stability you can achieve by backing the bribable incumbent or their candidate replacement and employing a small security army.
Is this tax retrospective on investments already made?
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I think that given the tax is only to be introduced in 3 years’ time makes it fairly predictable – I don’t think it’s meant to apply on profits made prior to 2010.
The one really predictable thing seems to be the greed of commercial interests. Also news of some of the supposed projects being put on hold – because they may make too much money – is an outright joke.
I think perhaps we should remove the $2B fuel rebate and various tax allowances given to the mining companies, so that they have a really “level playing field,” and see how they find that.
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It’s retrospective if it applies to profits on investments made before 2010. It’s not a stable business environment if you invest heavily in a low tax environment and are then taxed heavily. Not when a lot of that investment can’t be moved. I’m not saying it IS retrospective though, I’m asking.
No doubt some new projects will be put on hold temporarily in an act of brinkmanship. If the public caves in, game over. I think Rudd needed to do more to reassure the public. The “big, bad, rich guy” argument is OK when your life doesn’t depend on them for a job.
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Big, bad, rich guy…. sounds like you’re making me out to be setting them up as stereotypes. I think more it’s a pity that they’re acting like that; billionaires playing dressups in work clothes and talking about the fall of government because they have to pay more tax.
You haven’t said if you know if the tax is retrospective in the way you describe – is it?
No doubt it could have been done better politically, like many other things in recent times. I don’t think that gives any of the players [including Rudd] excuse to behave badly.
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Hey, I was asking the question because I don’t know, not as some ‘clever’ arguing ploy!
I didn’t mean you personally. I’m a bit of a knee-jerk sucker for that kind of argument myself by the way, but what it should come down to in the end is getting full market value for our minerals. AND keeping the market value for unmined minerals somewhere not too far away from their mined value.
Perhaps it’s time the countries with the minerals clubbed together. The mining companies have the means to turn the minerals into money, we have the minerals. Why should they be able to play the countries off against each other? Speaking of globalisation, in South Australia the mining companies say they need massive immigration to provide workers. Socialise the costs of labour, privatise the profits.
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It is not retrospective. Tax on super profits in the future,
not on the past. Existing mining projects do not qualify as being a retrospective tax situation in any way shape or form. Many have
already paid for/written down original investments and have received massive government subsidies in the course of the project. Many
projects have a life of 20, 30 or more years. During the course of these projects there have already been changes made to the ‘tax regime’ – company tax has gone down more than once – funny they didn’t
complain about that!
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The problem for me, is that the super duper iron ore tax makes sense to me, and I’m functioning on reduced f*&^ing brain cells. It won’t be a hindrance to new exploration, because the miners don’t cough up any readies until they’ve started to turn a coin, so to speak!!
In the old system, they started to pay royalties as soon as they set foot on the property. Anyhoo, I’ve had enough to drink for now, so I’m off to beddy byes. Sounds like bloody facebook, doesn’t it??
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I had to pop out for a break.
Look Viv, you wrote…”Why shouldn’t they pay a true fair share of super profits when they get the goods for a song “. However You don’t know that. And for that matter neither do I.
So that argument is fruitless. Like BP, it may never be enough!
We both agree that we should get some more loot from the mineral pillaging–so we’re on the same wavelength here.
Where we differ is, that I have an advantage offer you. Rudd has shown us his method of negotiation and so far it seems to have got every-ones backs up.
I have been a negotiator for a living–so I know (I think I know) how to approach complicated deals and how to establish the rapprochement.
He needed/needs an informed team , with a skilled leader. Why? Because it is a big deal; there’s a lot of money at stake here. And of course the ‘Magnates’ egos have to be stroked’ while their being given a dry bath. Why, again? Because one gets good results that way.
Oh oh dinner. ………….This is better than unleashed, as I can just take a break.. Maybe I have said enough anyway!!
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You wanna be a bit careful Jules or we may begin to take you seriously if you keep up this open minded even handedness. You’re beginning to put the lie to the notion of Liberal voters eating their own young.
This sober considered side to you is not something we’re used to. Perhaps you better throw in a few jokes just to be on the safe side.
In another somewhat disconcerting example of political agreement between you and me, I have to say I agree. I too think that Twiggy and Bunter and leChic, (my god that woman’s got a head like a robber’s dog!), would respond much better to ego stroking and blandishments while, as you say, we gave them a dry bath. Because that’s the point. Under Howard these plutocrats went from paying a dollar in three to paying only a dollar in seven and the balance must be redressed in the national interest otherwise we just become another Argentina, Brazil or Chile. It’s simply not reasonable for them to hold us ransom while they threaten the future economic prosperity of the entire nation. Equally Rudd seems clueless about how to get a negotiation going and it’s obvious that somewhere, somehow both sides are going to have to give a little. It’s just disappointing that we have to go through all this pointless posturing and politics first.
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Hi Julian – I do know that they get it for a song – the mining comanies making the super profits (because they are getting top dollars in sales) that is. Those whose ‘product’ is not so much in demand pay the same rate of royalty as those making the super profits. It is an out of date system, long overdue for change. I worked in the mining sector in the 70s and I have knowledge of how they function. I too have been (still am) a negotiator and recently became a reluctant company director – my colleagues insisted I do the job because I can cut through the BS.
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Oh well, you sort it out then.
Let us know how you go. You can’t be worse than Rudd!!
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Damn it Julian – you offered first!
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That’s just the way negotiating works.
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I have to say that sugar coating a bitter pill makes sense to me.
I once remember when I’d just started work, remarking to a colleague that the business decisions were only about the manager’s ego. It was pointed out to me that most things about about ego.
In any decision where there is someone who loses out you ignore human nature at your peril. Think of those Biggest Loser contestants (I know, I know, but one of my offspring was crazy for the show a couple of years ago and it’s harmless I think.) Before shafting one of the other contestants they ‘d always make a show of talking to them caringly, saying what a tough decision it was, and spilling a few tears.
Rudd could have paved the way. Hasten slowly. But no, he’s about Big Announcements.
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This er, um, is a great big tax…
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/11/2924815.htm?section=justin
Looks as if you’re all safe for a while. You’ll get A bit.
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He’ll try again, when the time is right
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You don’t remember my joke on UL: Mr RaBBIT has delivered the SHIT.
A bit.Abbott..Oh shut up Julian…It was corny anywayassse.
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Seemed more like Labour Party propaganda than mining company propaganda to me…
😉
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10206931.stm
What an earth is the matter with Glenn Stevens.
He’s so out of step, that it is not funny. He made a speech the other day, about families and consumers keeping out of debt. But he won’t allow them the chance to pay down debt by keeping interest rates in step with the world economy. He is out of step–on a vast ego trip.
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Doesn’t he play for Carlton?
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Do you mean that people play for a beer?
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I played in many a band that has played for beer
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Ronnie was pure genius
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It was funny. The fellow with gregory’s, reminded me of Ronnie Barker.
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Should be gregories…methinks.
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I’ll watch the video in a minute.
I only spotted it today….Probably cos I tend to go to the blogs that I get alerted to by mail. Below my reply to someone on Walladge’s opinion piece.
FROM UNLEASHED…Jayell : 09 Jun 2010 1:19:48pm
Let’s face it Rudd, at the moment,IS the Labor party.
So I think that the comparison stands. It just shows that he makes multiple errors.
Malcolm, seems to me, to be a competent minister in the making, as he is not naturally a politician, but a businessman. He is an intelligent man–and will have learned from his mistakes IMHO.
The worst thing that Rudd has done, in my view, is to squander the chance of a conciliatory agreement with the mining industry. That arrangement (more revenue) should have been handled differently. Perhaps by some-one with Malcolm’s skills..
Although I have always been a conservative, I believe that there is a good case for increasing the mineral sales income. And the fact that it has turned into a farrago, is just another example of Rudd’s botched rule.
A series of meetings, with every-one sworn to secrecy; a carrot and stick approach; a conciliatory atmosphere and some contemporaneous announcements.
Anyway Rudd has now paved the way for a Liberal government with, much to my dismay, Abbott in charge….Again RUDD’S fault!
You see folks that is the end of the story. It’s ALL Rudd’s fault!
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By Malcolm I assume you mean Turnbull. Turnbull only does what Turnbull wants, hardly a leader, anyway the liberals were too stupid to keep him up there and pushed in Big Ears, who won’t win the election and won’t be Opposition leader afterwards, good riddance.
Can you honestly sit there Jules and tell me that the mining industry would have acted any different had Rudd gone about it another way? If you believe that they would have then there is no hope for us ordinary folk and it will be worse if your lot do win the next election.
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1000% Hung. My experience has always been in negotiating. Either for myself or between clients.
Most of the worlds problems are negotiated rather than just trumpeted. Although the parties often practice brinkmanship. The Chinese and The Indians are good at that.
The Palestine solution will only come about when the various players come to agreements.
Forgetting Rudd’s political persuasion for a minute, you have to admit he seems to lurch from one disaster to another. It is clear to me that he doesn’t have the talent for negotiating.
His tactics haven’t worked have they ?
My point was, that Malcolm (in MY view), could have negotiated it better.
I didn’t know much about Rudd; only his ‘brief bio’, which I read when he became leader of The ALP.
However, he worried me when he started all this “me too” stuff. A shiver went down my spine– and I knew that was his (political)death knell.
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Yeah, just like he negotiated his leadership
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What hope for the nation guys if we, a group of regular Australians with no particular axes to grind can’t treat this entire issue with the contempt it deserves. Jules is right this has been appallingly handled and Rudd does rather look like a chump, but then the mining interests have acted in an entirely self interested way. It’s obvious they have no notion of the common good. And finally; of course Abbott is a place keeper for a party that has no idea why it’s even here; and if Turnbull’s sweet, exquisite, condescension doesn’t shine on the liberals after the next election, the none that Abbott will lose, then I’ll eat my hat; and further, if Abbott does win the next election, left or right wing, up or down, wet or dry, it won’t matter because we’ll all be going the wrong way with no brakes..
It’s a buggers muddle, Hobsons choice, Hell and highwater….,
So I say “damn the torpedoes! Full steam ahead Number One. Set your controls for the heart of the Sun, but as always…
Careful with that axe Eugene.
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Don’t actually quite agree. Abbott went to the mining companies, they told him what to do, he then announced that the libs wouldn’t support the tax, don’t what this party running my country, give me Rudd any day, anyway if we elect labour we will probably get Gillard which is fine by me
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You are so right Hung. I am somewhat astonished at some of the responses here. A tax such as the RSPT is long overdue. Mining companies are getting the resources for a pittance. It doesn’t seem to matter how much negotiation Rudd embarks on or doesn’t appear to have embarked on, Liberals and Mining CEOs will never be happy (see the ETS) – the bastards can’t stand Labor and will do whatever it takes to regain power (see what Fraser did with the help of Joh). Did Howard negotiate WorkChoices – NO!
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Here’s Tony negotiating with the mining companies
TA: Hi guys, I am introducing a tax on you for the betterment of every Australian
MC: Piss off dickhead
TA: Okay then, whatever you say.
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Here’s Malcolm negotiating with the mining companies
MT: I’m telling you that I am introducing a tax on you for the betterment of every Australian
MC: Piss off dickhead
MT: Okay then, whatever you say.
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It shouldn’t/oughtn’t to be about politics.
Getting more money from the minerals is a business transaction. Pure and simple.
So you need a business minded person to deal with it.
Rudd is the opposite–and Swan is no- better.
“It doesn’t seem to matter how much negotiation Rudd embarks on or doesn’t appear to have embarked on”
Well we don’t know do we? That’s the trouble with his whole regime.
AND, the very reason that it needed to be handled correctly, is highlighted by everyone’s perspective, including your surmises.
Of course The(mining) Industry is bound to argue for a better deal, but it seems extraordinary that it was handled like this.
AND, what’s the point of keep saying, “Oh we knew that they (the industry) would use scare tactics”. These sort of comments and counterpoints should not have been happening. It’s bound to alienate and exacerbate.
The proof is in the pudding—with a country now divided—and poor old Mr & Mrs Smith (the taxpayer), totally bewildered.
😦
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Hung wrote, …………………”Abbott went to the mining companies, they told him what to do,”
How do you know that??
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After Rudd announced the tax Big Ears met with the mining bosses in Sydney and came out saying he wouldn’t support it.
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Just so we’re clear here. Nothing I said up there was meant in any way to imply infer or in any way support an argument in favour of the Liberals, Tony Abbott or not having the RSPT.
I would rather have Rudd with all his personality problems and personal failings, many of which I share, than just about anyone else, except Big Red. I reckon JG as PM would be the ducks guts, the chocolates.
But these are distemperous times. Times when it’s best to just keep your head about you and look after your friends.
Ya with me?
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aye,aye capt’n
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“After Rudd announced the tax Big Ears met with the mining bosses in Sydney and came out saying he wouldn’t support it.”
That doesn’t mean that they told him what to do.
He strikes me as saying, AND doing, what he likes.
I’ll have a bet with yootoohoo……If he gets in, you can be damn sure he will revisit the miners and screw them. He’ll blame it all on Rudd, as, “The Tax We Had To Have!”
Beeeoootiful! One up for The Neos.
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He didn’t announce his position prior so to me it looks like he was told what to do “Be a good boy and run along now….” Twiggy would have told him
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Hey Jules, this is like the good old days on UL, you know a bit of a stoush about this and that, ah, takes me back
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Julian – sorry to say I really don’t think you know what you are talking about, i.e. out of your depth. For a bit of info to assist you please read SMH Business Section, page 8 (Ian Verrender) from 10th June. You want a business person to deal with it – really! Let business (any business) decide what it should pay in tax, what’s an expense, rate of depreciation – brilliant for business but nothing to do with running a country. By the way you will be hard put to find anyone on the Liberal benches of parliament with business experience of any significance (Turnbull comes closest to the exception but he really just gambled and mostly sold at the right time).
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Beautiful Vivienne, the truth hurts
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“So you need a business ‘minded’ person to deal with it.”
Really Vivienne, you should pay closer attention.
That is what I wrote. Not a business person. Two different things.
It is important that the negotiator has the skills for the task.
My list of skills for Rudd:
That is only my opinion of course. You may see something else in him.
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I’ll find that article later and read it, in deference to you Vivienne/Vor/Madelaine/Emmjay.
But in the meantime my greatest ally in this discussion is Kevvie, bless his cotton socks.
If I am out of my depth, he is 20,000 leagues under 😉
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Playing with words Julian? Business person or business minded person or perhaps a pro business person or what? Who or where is this ‘business minded person’ who should ‘deal with it’. Frankly I see no need for negotiations with the mining CEOs because from their actions and words they already think their sector pays plenty of tax and that they are someone’s god’s gift to Australia. Why shouldn’t they pay a true fair share of super profits when they get the goods for a song – they are the only ‘industry’ getting their raw materials this way.
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Go Viv, stick it up ‘im, a bit of cold hard steel
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OK, I’m curious. What’s with the Vivienne/Vor/Madelaine/Emmjay? Brain wobble?
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Well, if Vivienne gave us any personal details, I must have missed them. Not that anyone is obliged to. But we normally get some snippets. Even if it is…I went to the church in Adelaide this morning. Mind you haven’t read all of the stories and comments. So I was wondering if it was a nomedeplume of an already psuedo pen-name, alias, in disguise, so to speak.
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This from SawDustMick, one of the “Bludgers”.
We the miners will decide how much tax we will pay to this country and the circumstances in which we pay it” This democratically elected government of Australia does not have the right to tell us how much we should pay for Australia’s minerals, that is our right not theirs. We will choose the government of the day who is willing to do our bidding to enhance the bottom line of our mining companies. The Australian people should get down on their hands and knees and kiss the feet of every CEO of these huge multinational mining companies for saving them from the GFC. As Tones would say, Amen to that brother and sisters, now let us all bow our heads and pray for the CEO’s of BHP, RIO and of course let not forget Twiggy.
Classic.
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Brilliant, I mean after tax they will still be incredibly rich, won’t they?
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Love it!!
Need one about property developers. No wait, it would be the same!
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